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Thread: Patriotism has facilitated the prolifersation of tyranny

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    Regular Member minarchist's Avatar
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    Patriotism has facilitated the proliferation of tyranny

    Patriotism has provided the power-hungry criminals in our government a large degree of immunity from criticism. The Patriot Act, one of the most tyrannical laws in recent times, is essentially an open admission of this truth. The mentality that one should support one's government no matter what is foolish and repugnant to liberty. We are trillions of dollars more in debt and much less free, in comparison to a scant 20 years ago, thanks to the immunity of criticism that government worship, AKA patriotism, has provided.

    I have no loyalty to any state. I am loyal to my friends and I uphold ideals that are worth upholding (the importance of liberty being one of them). I do not worship a state, nor an arbitrary piece of the earth's surface, nor its population. Sure, the Constitution has some good ideas in it, but I will not put the federal government on some sort of pedestal, and fawn over a flag, just because of that. I think that the Bill of Rights is great, but that doesn't mean that I owe anything to this government, or that I am obligated to pledge allegiance to some piece of cloth.

    “When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”

    Upton Sinclair
    Last edited by minarchist; 04-06-2013 at 09:06 PM.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    The constitution doesn't put government on a pedestal either, people have done that.

    Dissent is the highest form of patriotism, the bastardization of what being a patriot means is like you point out a major symptom of the plague of nationalism.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member minarchist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    The constitution doesn't put government on a pedestal either, people have done that.

    Dissent is the highest form of patriotism, the bastardization of what being a patriot means is like you point out a major symptom of the plague of nationalism.
    Exactly. I was using the contemporary colloquial meaning of the word.

    Why do you think that expressing views in the OP is treated as heresy in such a supposedly free country?

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by minarchist View Post
    Exactly. I was using the contemporary colloquial meaning of the word.

    Why do you think that expressing views in the OP is treated as heresy in such a supposedly free country?
    The state needs it to be akin to religious adherence otherwise their power evaporates. This was one goal of Francis Bellamy the socialist who invented the flag salute, and worked to institute it as part of the public education of children. It has worked.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    The cure is to differentiate government from the people. Pertty simple, really. Lots of people distrust government. Congress has an approval rating near that of snakes and cockroaches. Many, many people were unhappy with Neverending Iraqi Freedom.

    Just keep pointing it out. I do. It comes up on this forum periodically: posters confuse government actions with "we". As in, "we're over there." No "we're" not--the government is. The North Koreans hate "us". No they don't--they hate the criminals in our government. Iran considers us the Great Satan. No Iran doesn't--Iran's government considers our government the Great Satan because of its meddling since the 1950's

    The government is not us; we are not the government. To prove that lie, just consider Obama's recent remarks to the effect that we are the government: if he said it, then it must be a lie.

    Just keep making that distinction whenever you see an opportunity. It will sink in.
    Last edited by Citizen; 04-06-2013 at 09:34 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member minarchist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    The state needs it to be akin to religious adherence otherwise their power evaporates. This was one goal of Francis Bellamy the socialist who invented the flag salute, and worked to institute it as part of the public education of children. It has worked.
    Why does the cult of the flag demand that we treat veterans of post-WWII conflicts as gods, to whom we owe gratitude for the preservation of our freedoms [sic], when North Korea, North Vietnam, Iraq, etc. were Third World jokes that posed precisely zero risk of conquering this country?

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    Regular Member minarchist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    The cure is to differentiate government from the people. Pertty simple, really. Lots of people distrust government. Congress has an approval rating near that of snakes and cockroaches. Many, many people were unhappy with Neverending Iraqi Freedom.

    Just keep pointing it out. I do. It comes up on this forum periodically: posters confuse government actions with "we". As in, "we're over there." No "we're" not--the government is. The North Koreans hate "us". No they don't--they hate the criminals in our government. Iran considers us the Great Satan. No Iran doesn't--Iran's government considers our government the Great Satan because of its meddling since the 1950's

    The government is not us; we are not the government. To prove that lie, just consider Obama's recent remarks to the effect that we are the government: if he said it, then it must be a lie.

    Just keep making that distinction whenever you see an opportunity. It will sink in.
    A lot of self-described patriots insist that they understand this distinction, but when someone else expresses disapproval of this country being the global cop (which is a consequence of government decisions), these individuals become very butthurt, with claims that the troops are not being "supported" by this anti-Pax Americana inidividual. So there are people who claim to follow this distinction who are lying sacks of excrement who show with their actions that they are indeed very pro-government.

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    Quote Originally Posted by minarchist View Post
    Why does the cult of the flag demand that we treat veterans of post-WWII conflicts as gods, to whom we owe gratitude for the preservation of our freedoms [sic], when North Korea, North Vietnam, Iraq, etc. were Third World jokes that posed precisely zero risk of conquering this country?
    I think you're over-generalizing. But, lets put that aside for a moment. Are you really all that worked up about it? The answer is too obvious--they don't know any better. Why get all worked up about this. Just roll up your sleeves and start changing minds instead of posing bitter questions that come off as whining.

    As far as generalizing, I know a few vets myself. They don't demand hero-worship. I think you are extending the propoganda of a relative few too far, and taking it far too literally.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member minarchist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    I think you're over-generalizing. But, lets put that aside for a moment. Are you really all that worked up about it? The answer is too obvious--they don't know any better. Why get all worked up about this. Just roll up your sleeves and start changing minds instead of posing bitter questions that come off as whining.

    As far as generalizing, I know a few vets myself. They don't demand hero-worship. I think you are extending the propoganda of a relative few too far, and taking it far too literally.
    I have a right to complain when I have to suffer because of others. Do you really think that only a few subscribe to this propaganda when militaristic patriotism, by all appearances, is standard ideology for establishment Republicans?

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    The cure is to differentiate government from the people. Pertty simple, really. Lots of people distrust government. Congress has an approval rating near that of snakes and cockroaches. Many, many people were unhappy with Neverending Iraqi Freedom.

    Just keep pointing it out. I do. It comes up on this forum periodically: posters confuse government actions with "we". As in, "we're over there." No "we're" not--the government is. The North Koreans hate "us". No they don't--they hate the criminals in our government. Iran considers us the Great Satan. No Iran doesn't--Iran's government considers our government the Great Satan because of its meddling since the 1950's

    The government is not us; we are not the government. To prove that lie, just consider Obama's recent remarks to the effect that we are the government: if he said it, then it must be a lie.

    Just keep making that distinction whenever you see an opportunity. It will sink in.
    Rothbard was great at pointing out it is them vs. us., something I have been working hard to remember too, that my government is not me or us. It is them. Great post!
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by minarchist View Post
    I have a right to complain when I have to suffer because of others. Do you really think that only a few subscribe to this propaganda when militaristic patriotism, by all appearances, is standard ideology for establishment Republicans?
    It's the system that is bad, it is the system that has mislead these fellow citizens. Some of the most ardent antiwar, anti militaristic people I know are vets. Help destroy the propaganda and you help the cause.


    Both the R's and D's are pretty fervent worshipers of Mars........ , they pretend to have different pet peeve causes.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member minarchist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    It's the system that is bad, it is the system that has mislead these fellow citizens. Some of the most ardent antiwar, anti militaristic people I know are vets. Help destroy the propaganda and you help the cause.


    Both the R's and D's are pretty fervent worshipers of Mars........ , they pretend to have different pet peeve causes.
    I am fully aware that there are very many great anti-Pax Americana veterans. The irony is that the flag wavers treat these people like yesterday's trash. I thought that they "support the troops".

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by minarchist View Post
    I am fully aware that there are very many great anti-Pax Americana veterans. The irony is that the flag wavers treat these people like yesterday's trash. I thought that they "support the troops".

    Yes that is Ironic, to those of us who see the irony, to them, as we talked about earlier, it is akin to religious fervor and those who don't support that are heretics. This is were the work is cut out to help change and educate others.

    Galileo was not immediately successful in changing the long held belief enforced by the religious rulers that the earth was not the center of the Universe. But he did have a great effect on many who payed attention and eventually logic and science won out over dogma.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by minarchist View Post
    I have a right to complain when I have to suffer because of others. Do you really think that only a few subscribe to this propaganda when militaristic patriotism, by all appearances, is standard ideology for establishment Republicans?
    Who says you have that right? It can't be the country of the papers it is founded on since you do not support or seem to believe in them at all. As for propaganda, I am seeing you flow forth with a bunch of it in this thread. This particular post kind of shows what at least part of your hidden agenda seems to be, bashing one of the parties. The word "hypocrite" comes to mind.....

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    Regular Member minarchist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mohawk001 View Post
    Who says you have that right?
    It's called "freedom of speech".

    It can't be the country of the papers it is founded on since you do not support or seem to believe in them at all.
    What are you referring to?

    As for propaganda, I am seeing you flow forth with a bunch of it in this thread. This particular post kind of shows what at least part of your hidden agenda seems to be, bashing one of the parties. The word "hypocrite" comes to mind.....
    Tyrants and their sycophants deserve to be bashed. Why does it hurt your feelings when evil people are ridiculed?

    Explain the alleged hypocrisy.

    Hypocrisy is saying that you're for small government and fiscal responsibility, then proceeding to expand government by creating DHS and wasting trillions of dollars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by minarchist View Post
    It's called "freedom of speech".



    What are you referring to?



    Tyrants and their sycophants deserve to be bashed. Why does it hurt your feelings when evil people are ridiculed?

    Explain the alleged hypocrisy.

    Hypocrisy is saying that you're for small government and fiscal responsibility, then proceeding to expand government by creating DHS and wasting trillions of dollars.
    You can't mean that freedom of speech that is protected by the government, and I'm thinking country, that you seem to hate so much can you? Without that government backing up that freedom, who says you really have it? Yes, hypocrite keeps popping to mind...... Oh, and please stop telling lies about me. Who said it hurt my feelings when evil people are ridiculed...other than you I mean? Are you saying you want to be ridiculed? And be a real man and just come out with threads saying you hate Republicans instead of trying to be sly about it. You're not too sly it appears after all. Also be willing to open your eyes since the things you are bashing and wanting to blame just a single part for has been supported and been passed by another party in many ways. Neither party has been too great after all. But keeping with this board, at least I haven't seen the Reps trying to remove our rights when it comes to guns, at least in comparison to what the Dems are trying to pull. Oh, and stop with the talk about small government and fiscal responsibility. Those are the types of things that patriots talk about, and you don't believe in it. You don't believe in trying to support a country that is giving you the freedom of speech. Patriotism as far as a country is involved means believing in that country. Believing in it's ideals that it was founded on and supporting those ideals. It does not mean to be a blind follower as you try to incline. You try to twist things, and I'm betting it's because you have nothing of real substance to stand on. Otherwise you would not need to twist words in such a way. People like you are why others think those of us who want to be able to keep our rights under the 2nd are nuts and extremists. You have no rights if you do not believe in what it is that gives you those rights, and you have said you do not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    The cure is to differentiate government from the people. Pertty simple, really. Lots of people distrust government. Congress has an approval rating near that of snakes and cockroaches. Many, many people were unhappy with Neverending Iraqi Freedom.

    Just keep pointing it out. I do. It comes up on this forum periodically: posters confuse government actions with "we". As in, "we're over there." No "we're" not--the government is. The North Koreans hate "us". No they don't--they hate the criminals in our government. Iran considers us the Great Satan. No Iran doesn't--Iran's government considers our government the Great Satan because of its meddling since the 1950's

    The government is not us; we are not the government. To prove that lie, just consider Obama's recent remarks to the effect that we are the government: if he said it, then it must be a lie.

    Just keep making that distinction whenever you see an opportunity. It will sink in.
    Exactly. And the same needs to be done in regards to the flag and a lot of other things. The flag isn't a symbol of the government, or military, or anything like that. It is the symbol to the world of what our country was founded on. When I salute the flag I'm not saluting my government. I'm saluting the ideas that our country was founded on. I'm saluting freedom, liberty, and those that came before me and have given their lives to defend such things in order for us to remain free(er than the majority/rest of the world); NOT the government who works to take away such things.

    Also Citizen I would be careful with what you say in regards to why other countries hate us and/or the U.S. While meddling can very much be a reason (and I feel we do it FAR too much), our freedoms/liberties can also be a reason for it as it threatens their power (especially with things like the internet to spread around such ideas). After all, things like the various witch hunts, the Holocaust, etc weren't because of meddling.

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    Ignorant patriotism has facilitated the proliferation of tyranny

    There, fixed it for ya. Our Founding Fathers warned US against foreign entanglements as they tried to build a nation under natural law.

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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by mohawk001 View Post
    You can't mean that freedom of speech that is protected by the government, and I'm thinking country, that you seem to hate so much can you? Without that government backing up that freedom, who says you really have it? Yes, hypocrite keeps popping to mind...... Oh, and please stop telling lies about me. Who said it hurt my feelings when evil people are ridiculed...other than you I mean? Are you saying you want to be ridiculed? And be a real man and just come out with threads saying you hate Republicans instead of trying to be sly about it. You're not too sly it appears after all. Also be willing to open your eyes since the things you are bashing and wanting to blame just a single part for has been supported and been passed by another party in many ways. Neither party has been too great after all. But keeping with this board, at least I haven't seen the Reps trying to remove our rights when it comes to guns, at least in comparison to what the Dems are trying to pull. Oh, and stop with the talk about small government and fiscal responsibility. Those are the types of things that patriots talk about, and you don't believe in it. You don't believe in trying to support a country that is giving you the freedom of speech. Patriotism as far as a country is involved means believing in that country. Believing in it's ideals that it was founded on and supporting those ideals. It does not mean to be a blind follower as you try to incline. You try to twist things, and I'm betting it's because you have nothing of real substance to stand on. Otherwise you would not need to twist words in such a way. People like you are why others think those of us who want to be able to keep our rights under the 2nd are nuts and extremists. You have no rights if you do not believe in what it is that gives you those rights, and you have said you do not.
    My rights are not contingent on worship of the state. This is a messed up idea.

  20. #20
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ca Patriot View Post
    I wasnt aware that science has proven the earth isnt the center of the universe.
    I see, what you are getting at.

    Proved the the sun doesn't revolve around the Earth.....
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    Exactly. And the same needs to be done in regards to the flag and a lot of other things. The flag isn't a symbol of the government, or military, or anything like that. It is the symbol to the world of what our country was founded on. When I salute the flag I'm not saluting my government. I'm saluting the ideas that our country was founded on. I'm saluting freedom, liberty, and those that came before me and have given their lives to defend such things in order for us to remain free(er than the majority/rest of the world); NOT the government who works to take away such things.

    Also Citizen I would be careful with what you say in regards to why other countries hate us and/or the U.S. While meddling can very much be a reason (and I feel we do it FAR too much), our freedoms/liberties can also be a reason for it as it threatens their power (especially with things like the internet to spread around such ideas). After all, things like the various witch hunts, the Holocaust, etc weren't because of meddling.
    I understand what you're saying.

    But, keep in mind, its just the reverse of what we're arguing against here: its not the other country that hates us--its the government of the other country. For example, the Iranian theocracry. A film maker made a documentary last year. He visited Iranian people in their homes, toured their country. Best damn way to undermine the anti-Iranian rhetoric spewing from the US gov I ever saw. The evil, freedom-hating Iranians turned out to be people just like you and I.

    Its the governments that hate our freedom. And, don't overlook that there are plenty of people in this country that hate our freedom--Christian conservatives hate the freedom of choice regarding abortions, tons of WASPs hate drugs, tons of liberals hate what they think is capitalism (actually crony capitalism), tons of people hate the idea that you should be able to get medical care without government stealing money from you to pay for the other guy's medical care, etc., etc., etc. (add ten more etc's here).

    Personally, I would like to go back about ten years and ask a question. Whoever was the first to spew this idea that other societies hate us because of our freedoms--I just want to ask him one question: oh? You got some concrete, factual examples? I got ten dollars says whoever spewed that concept into the national media and the others who picked it up and shoveled it around further didn't have three real-life examples. Certainly I never heard one single solitary example of a non-government Iranian, N. Korean, or Saudi saying he hated us because of our freedom, much less an entire culture. Think about it. That would have been the Harris Poll of the century.
    Last edited by Citizen; 04-07-2013 at 10:12 AM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Rothbard was great at pointing out it is them vs. us., something I have been working hard to remember too, that my government is not me or us. It is them. Great post!
    I is proud of myself. I recognized it before reading Rothbard on it.

    I do want to read his book on the anatomy of the state. Ought to be very good.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mohawk001 View Post
    Who says you have that right? It can't be the country of the papers it is founded on since you do not support or seem to believe in them at all. As for propaganda, I am seeing you flow forth with a bunch of it in this thread. This particular post kind of shows what at least part of your hidden agenda seems to be, bashing one of the parties. The word "hypocrite" comes to mind.....
    He bashes the other party, too. Seen him do it.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by minarchist View Post
    I have a right to complain when I have to suffer because of others. Do you really think that only a few subscribe to this propaganda when militaristic patriotism, by all appearances, is standard ideology for establishment Republicans?
    Oh, puh-leeze. Show me where I said you didn't have a right to complain. I'm talking about your whining instead of rolling up your sleeves and doing something about it.

    Instead of asking bitter questions, just start dissassembling their arguments. Start changing minds.

    And, side-note, whatever you wrote that Grapeshot deleted, please don't do it again. It just undermines the many great ideas you have written here.
    Last edited by Citizen; 04-07-2013 at 12:40 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    Exactly. And the same needs to be done in regards to the flag and a lot of other things. The flag isn't a symbol of the government, or military, or anything like that. It is the symbol to the world of what our country was founded on. When I salute the flag I'm not saluting my government. I'm saluting the ideas that our country was founded on. I'm saluting freedom, liberty, and those that came before me and have given their lives to defend such things in order for us to remain free(er than the majority/rest of the world); NOT the government who works to take away such things.

    Also Citizen I would be careful with what you say in regards to why other countries hate us and/or the U.S. While meddling can very much be a reason (and I feel we do it FAR too much), our freedoms/liberties can also be a reason for it as it threatens their power (especially with things like the internet to spread around such ideas). After all, things like the various witch hunts, the Holocaust, etc weren't because of meddling.
    That is a tricky argument to sustain. I'm not saying its wrong; I'm saying those who are familiar with previous wars and the fedgov can shoot it full of holes. You want to qualify it just a little bit, or leave out the veterans/war angle altogether.

    For example, its already been established that the Spanish American war was started by the media and fedgov over a coal bunker explosion on the USS Maine, not spanish sabotage. This was a few years ago. Engineers took a look at the wreckage photos and did experiments to show how water rushing into the hole in the hull was the probable cause of the inward-bent metal.

    It was long ago established that Wilson lied us into WWI.

    Read USMC General Smedley Butler's book War is a Racket to find out how much freedom protecting was going on during the Banana Wars.

    Have a deep look at Curtis LeMays utter destruction of Japanese and German cities--civilian populations. LeMay himself said that if the US lost WWII, he'd be hanged as a war criminal.

    Of course, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan have their own slimey government angles.

    Yes, there were wars where the military was fighting to preserve freedom; but, the concept is cluttered up with wars where the troops were not fighting for our freedoms. You also get tangled up in having to defend the troops for being misled by the government abusing their sense of patriotism, etc.

    I just say I respect the flag because its a symbol that represents the nation--the individual citizens. When you think about it, even when the government flies the flag, its flying it as a symbol of all the individual people in this nation, rather than as a symbol of itself.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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