sudden valley gunner
Regular Member
I wasnt aware that science has proven the earth isnt the center of the universe.
I see, what you are getting at.
Proved the the sun doesn't revolve around the Earth.....
I wasnt aware that science has proven the earth isnt the center of the universe.
Exactly. And the same needs to be done in regards to the flag and a lot of other things. The flag isn't a symbol of the government, or military, or anything like that. It is the symbol to the world of what our country was founded on. When I salute the flag I'm not saluting my government. I'm saluting the ideas that our country was founded on. I'm saluting freedom, liberty, and those that came before me and have given their lives to defend such things in order for us to remain free(er than the majority/rest of the world); NOT the government who works to take away such things.
Also Citizen I would be careful with what you say in regards to why other countries hate us and/or the U.S. While meddling can very much be a reason (and I feel we do it FAR too much), our freedoms/liberties can also be a reason for it as it threatens their power (especially with things like the internet to spread around such ideas). After all, things like the various witch hunts, the Holocaust, etc weren't because of meddling.
Rothbard was great at pointing out it is them vs. us., something I have been working hard to remember too, that my government is not me or us. It is them. Great post!
Who says you have that right? It can't be the country of the papers it is founded on since you do not support or seem to believe in them at all. As for propaganda, I am seeing you flow forth with a bunch of it in this thread. This particular post kind of shows what at least part of your hidden agenda seems to be, bashing one of the parties. The word "hypocrite" comes to mind.....
I have a right to complain when I have to suffer because of others. Do you really think that only a few subscribe to this propaganda when militaristic patriotism, by all appearances, is standard ideology for establishment Republicans?
Exactly. And the same needs to be done in regards to the flag and a lot of other things. The flag isn't a symbol of the government, or military, or anything like that. It is the symbol to the world of what our country was founded on. When I salute the flag I'm not saluting my government. I'm saluting the ideas that our country was founded on. I'm saluting freedom, liberty, and those that came before me and have given their lives to defend such things in order for us to remain free(er than the majority/rest of the world); NOT the government who works to take away such things.
Also Citizen I would be careful with what you say in regards to why other countries hate us and/or the U.S. While meddling can very much be a reason (and I feel we do it FAR too much), our freedoms/liberties can also be a reason for it as it threatens their power (especially with things like the internet to spread around such ideas). After all, things like the various witch hunts, the Holocaust, etc weren't because of meddling.
That is a tricky argument to sustain. I'm not saying its wrong; I'm saying those who are familiar with previous wars and the fedgov can shoot it full of holes. You want to qualify it just a little bit, or leave out the veterans/war angle altogether.
For example, its already been established that the Spanish American war was started by the media and fedgov over a coal bunker explosion on the USS Maine, not spanish sabotage. This was a few years ago. Engineers took a look at the wreckage photos and did experiments to show how water rushing into the hole in the hull was the probable cause of the inward-bent metal.
It was long ago established that Wilson lied us into WWI.
Read USMC General Smedley Butler's book War is a Racket to find out how much freedom protecting was going on during the Banana Wars.
Have a deep look at Curtis LeMays utter destruction of Japanese and German cities--civilian populations. LeMay himself said that if the US lost WWII, he'd be hanged as a war criminal.
Of course, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan have their own slimey government angles.
Yes, there were wars where the military was fighting to preserve freedom; but, the concept is cluttered up with wars where the troops were not fighting for our freedoms. You also get tangled up in having to defend the troops for being misled by the government abusing their sense of patriotism, etc.
I just say I respect the flag because its a symbol that represents the nation--the individual citizens. When you think about it, even when the government flies the flag, its flying it as a symbol of all the individual people in this nation, rather than as a symbol of itself.
SNIP Oh I know this stuff happens. I also believe that we likely got pulled into WWII because the POTUS didn't act on information purposely just to have a reason for us to join the war. While on one side I highly disagree with such actions, on the other hand I'm torn by the fact that it can take such an action to get a nation to stop an issue before it gets out of hand. For example in WWII had we not entered the war when we did and waited, we very easily could have found ourselves with the Japanese on one side and the Germans on the other. I don't have a good answer, though I can see why they would lie or let an attack happen in order to get involved before the situation got to where there was a far less likely of a chance to recover.
SNIP It's a Catch 22. For example, I agree with the initial reason for going to Afghanistan. An organization from there attacked us here (not going to get into the provocation or reasons behind the attack as one could write a book or five on it), and the government was effectively harboring them. Go in, decimate their ability to do so again, then LEAVE. Only we didn't leave. So then as a military member do I refuse to go because I disagree with how the "leaders" are handling the war? Or do I go even though I think the political leaders have turned an otherwise justified action into something that goes against what I think? With one I risk having my family out on the curb and potentially even have my rights infringed upon depending on how they discharge me, on the other I enable the gov to keep on doing their irresponsible and reckless actions.
The constitution doesn't put government on a pedestal either, people have done that.
Dissent is the highest form of patriotism, the bastardization of what being a patriot means is like you point out a major symptom of the plague of nationalism.
Exactly. I was using the contemporary colloquial meaning of the word.
Why do you think that expressing views in the OP is treated as heresy in such a supposedly free country? :question:
You can't mean that freedom of speech that is protected by the government, and I'm thinking country, that you seem to hate so much can you? Without that government backing up that freedom, who says you really have it?
My rights don't exist thanks to government, thankyouverymuch. And being that government is so frequently (read: always) engaged in trying to abrogate them, I have a hard time seeing any connection to reality when you talk about it "protecting" my rights.
I protect my rights.
Or let me put it another way: who, exactly (aside from a government), is going to tell me I don't have the right to speak my mind? You? I seriously doubt you're prepared to make that happen.
Incidentally, the whole concept of rights derives from a notion of necessary limitations on government. Rights were initially formulated to explain the need to limit government's actions, not because folks needed to think of another way to justify government's existence. "Well, you see, we have these rights, but we're never able to exercise them, so clearly we need a government to protect them!" :lol:
I don't believe I possess language to convey the magnitude of the irony of this silly little remark.
If government worship isn't a widespread problem in this country, then why do many people get so butthurt when some people claim that 9/11 was an inside job
because 9-11 wasnt an inside job.
Regardless of whether 9/11 was an inside job, a lot of people are taking this accusation against the government personally, as if their own family was insulted. Ergo, this behavior clearly shows that people love Big Brother. Contrary to what you may think, it is not reasonable for people to become enraged when someone else professes an incorrect theory (even one that is incorrect to the point of being kooky).
For those who have been following the discussion between Aknazer and I:
Regarding the Spanish-American war, don't forget that it led the US into involvement in the Phillipines. As though annexing/treaty-ing the territory wasn't bad enough, it led directly to the Morro Insurrection where the Morros were fighting for their freedom from our government.
I dont think anyone gets offended because of love for America. They get offended because of love for intelligence and common sense.
Personally I dont get offended. However, my next door neighboor and family friend was on the plane (or missile according to some) that hit the Pentagon. She flew that route regularly and I havent seen her since then.
I dont know the motives behind the 9-11 truthers but I do know that the truth is 9-11 wasnt an inside job. I think that fact offends many lunatics.
Exactly. And the same needs to be done in regards to the flag and a lot of other things. The flag isn't a symbol of the government, or military, or anything like that. It is the symbol to the world of what our country was founded on. When I salute the flag I'm not saluting my government. I'm saluting the ideas that our country was founded on. I'm saluting freedom, liberty, and those that came before me and have given their lives to defend such things in order for us to remain free(er than the majority/rest of the world); NOT the government who works to take away such things.
Also Citizen I would be careful with what you say in regards to why other countries hate us and/or the U.S. While meddling can very much be a reason (and I feel we do it FAR too much), our freedoms/liberties can also be a reason for it as it threatens their power (especially with things like the internet to spread around such ideas). After all, things like the various witch hunts, the Holocaust, etc weren't because of meddling.
The flag salute invented by the national socialist Bellamy? This is part of the problem it wasn't our "nation" or government that did this, it was our ancestors, people, individuals that did this. They felt no necessity to salute or pledge allegiance to a nation.