Patriotism has facilitated the prolifersation of tyranny

Also I personally don't consider ALL things thought of or invented by nationals, socialists, communists, etc to be wrong or evil. So just because the national socialist Bellamy invented the flag salute doesn't mean I'm instantly going to think it's a horrible thing to do.

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Yeah, but it's totally creepy all by itself.

Its origin merely provides a meta-explaination why.

sudden valley gunner said:

Are you purposefully not addressing his point?

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I think I purposely addressed his point.

marshaul said:

Yeah, but it's totally creepy all by itself.

Its origin merely provides a meta-explaination why.

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You know, you've got a point there. It is kinda creepy. Same with the idea of millions of school kids putting their hand over their heart and pledging allegiance to a flag. There's something North Korean about it. Just substitute a flag for a picture of Dear Leader.

Why does anybody have to work so hard to ensure my allegiance? Are they planning something they think I might object to? When I think about all the pro-empire and pro-war rhetoric I've heard over the last many years, it suddenly occurs to me that this pledge of allegiance business fits very nicely.

Nightmare said:

What might one be pledging allegiance to? I happily Pledge Allegiance to the vision that the Founding Fathers had in our Constitution and that was incarnated (made real meat) in the nation as it was founded, warts and all. The vision has beeb corrupted by progressives, starting with Wilson and Roosevelt.

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I'll pledge allegiance to nothing. If something deserves my allegiance on an ongoing basis, it will have it. That's a wholly contingent proposition.

Citizen said:

You know, you've got a point there. It is kinda creepy. Same with the idea of millions of school kids putting their hand over their heart and pledging allegiance to a flag. There's something North Korean about it. Just substitute a flag for a picture of Dear Leader.

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I've thought precisely this about the pledge for a long time. Long enough that I would have once inserted "Naziesque" instead of North Korean.

So long ago, that I believe I was about 11 or 12 when I first lied to my teachers, telling them my parents had a religious objection to the pledge of allegiance. Most of my friends thought it was a clever excuse to be lazy, but at that age I was not able to properly articulate my reasoning.

marshaul said:

, but at that age I was not able to properly articulate my reasoning.

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some things never change

Ca Patriot said:

some things never change

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Historically, the pledging of allegiance was a coerced ceremony, imposed upon the former warriors of a defeated tribal leader or king, under threat of death. It was the forced choice between immediate death at the hands of the victors, or the damnation of the god upon whose name the coerced warrior was swearing.

Now I ask you, who pledges allegiance: who has so subjugated you that you are willing to swear loyalty to your enemy, so as to save your immortal soul? You contemptible coward.

()pen(arry said:

Historically, the pledging of allegiance was a coerced ceremony, imposed upon the former warriors of a defeated tribal leader or king, under threat of death. It was the forced choice between immediate death at the hands of the victors, or the damnation of the god upon whose name the coerced warrior was swearing.

Now I ask you, who pledges allegiance: who has so subjugated you that you are willing to swear loyalty to your enemy, so as to save your immortal soul? You contemptible coward.

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[video=youtube;YrOGeua94FM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrOGeua94FM[/video]

Ca Patriot said:

I dont think anyone gets offended because of love for America. They get offended because of love for intelligence and common sense.

Personally I dont get offended. However, my next door neighboor and family friend was on the plane (or missile according to some) that hit the Pentagon. She flew that route regularly and I havent seen her since then.

I dont know the motives behind the 9-11 truthers but I do know that the truth is 9-11 wasnt an inside job. I think that fact offends many lunatics.

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As I indicated, 9-11 truthism may be kooky, but that does not make extreme vitriol against 9-11 truthers reasonable. Rational people simply shrug and move on when they hear a kooky idea. They don't foam at the mouth.

minarchist said:

As I indicated, 9-11 truthism may be kooky, but that does not make extreme vitriol against 9-11 truthers reasonable. Rational people simply shrug and move on when they hear a kooky idea. They don't foam at the mouth.

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You should never have Ca Patriot in mind, while writing about Rationality. They live to foam at the mouth. It's a salivary thing.

Beretta92FSLady said:

You should never have Ca Patriot in mind, while writing about Rationality. They live to foam at the mouth. It's a salivary thing.

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You know, sometimes it does seem that way.

Citizen said:

You know, you've got a point there. It is kinda creepy. Same with the idea of millions of school kids putting their hand over their heart and pledging allegiance to a flag. There's something North Korean about it. Just substitute a flag for a picture of Dear Leader.

Why does anybody have to work so hard to ensure my allegiance? Are they planning something they think I might object to? When I think about all the pro-empire and pro-war rhetoric I've heard over the last many years, it suddenly occurs to me that this pledge of allegiance business fits very nicely.

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Yep, I have never said the pledge of allegiance. Started off as religious objection, and then as I got a little older I realized what a conditioning tool it was. And having actually experienced some persecution for not saying it by teachers and others I realized how well it has worked in putting nationalizm above your country, which actually furthered my resolve against it. Sort of like the Babylonians throwing Hebrews into a furnace for not bowing down to the idol that represented their state.

Aknazer said:

Who said it was necessary to do so? While I know some people might feel that way, I do not. As for pledging allegiance to a nation, I consider the people and the ideas on which the country was founded to be the "nation" and not the government. So our ancestors, people, and individuals would all be a part of our nation to me. Though if you have a better word to describe what I'm talking about besides "nation" I'm willing to consider using it instead.

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I understand, I try not to use nation to represent my country anymore, although it is hard because it is so ingrained in us. Before the rise of nation states, country was just your community, your area, people who shared similar culture and language. My American Indian family will often say things like " in Indian Country" meaning those across U.S. who share a common ancestry or heritage. I do believe the pledge of allegiance is to our nation; meaning our government.

My point about the founders not finding it necessary, is to point out they didn't put the government up on a pedestal, I think they would find the pledge a direct conflict with the whole point behind the 2A which is a constant implied threat of violence against our government. It is also was a destructive tool against federalism, the fact that the states were not supposed to be inferior to the Federal government.

Also I personally don't consider ALL things thought of or invented by nationals, socialists, communists, etc to be wrong or evil. So just because the national socialist Bellamy invented the flag salute doesn't mean I'm instantly going to think it's a horrible thing to do.

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Good point again, but what was the reason behind the flag salute? Has it worked? How ardently some people defend it tells me it has.
On a personal level I think it is a horrible thing, this doesn't mean I judge others who say it as horrible.
As an experiment try not to say it next time in a public setting, and just observe it.....

sudden valley gunner said:

As an experiment try not to say it next time in a public setting, and just observe it.....

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Many years ago (right after 9/11), I stopped singing the national anthem at hockey games (which I attend as often as possible). I don't even take my hat off, let alone put my hand on my heart. I get a lot of hairy eyeballs, some queries as to whether I'm Canadian, and plenty of nasty comments about showing "respect" from the people around me. On the rare occasions I don't simply ignore them, I reply, "I support liberty without the need for empty gestures."

I also don't stand or applaud when they indulge in the de rigueur, farcical platitude of "recognizing" some military or ex-military person in the audience. No one seems to see fit to stand and applaud me for doing my job well, and the things I do to endorse, promote, and support liberty are infinitely more effective than anything anyone can do with a rifle.

()pen(arry said:

Many years ago (right after 9/11), I stopped singing the national anthem at hockey games (which I attend as often as possible). I don't even take my hat off, let alone put my hand on my heart. I get a lot of hairy eyeballs, some queries as to whether I'm Canadian, and plenty of nasty comments about showing "respect" from the people around me. On the rare occasions I don't simply ignore them, I reply, "I support liberty without the need for empty gestures."

I also don't stand or applaud when they indulge in the de rigueur, farcical platitude of "recognizing" some military or ex-military person in the audience. No one seems to see fit to stand and applaud me for doing my job well, and the things I do to endorse, promote, and support liberty are infinitely more effective than anything anyone can do with a rifle.

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+1

Dissent is the highest form of Patriotism!