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Thread: When Dogs Attack. Self Defense Against Animals?

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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    When Dogs Attack. Self Defense Against Animals?

    Last night while walking my dogs a neighbors dog broke loose from their "flex leash" and charged me and my dog. This is the second time in the past four or five days this has happened and I thought we had resolved this "issue" with the neighbors. Apparently not. I was on the public sidewalk about a block from my house when this second attack occurred. As I approached the corner where the sidewalks meet at the end of the block the dog came running at full speed toward me. I was ready for him and managed to kick him hard with my boot. Aiming for his head I missed but instead hit him on the right side of his rib cage. He bolted down the sidewalk back to his house at full speed. I was livid to say the least and told my neighbor who had lost control of her dog that if it attacked me again I was going to kill it. She runs back to her house and by the time I get to my home her husband ambles over to me as my wife and I are opening our front door. He wasn't happy that I said I was going to kill their dog. I was not open carrying last night, I had my camo coat on so my gun was never part of any of this. I explained to him they are responsible for their dogs and what they do and to take measures to control them such as a harness and a legal leash. Flex leashes are not legal in Kenosha since they exceed the maximum length (either 6 or 8 feet, I can't remember what the ordinance states at this time). After a few more choice words he promised to "take measures so this won't happen again".

    I can tell you the "Tueller Drill" doesn't apply to dogs. They are incredibly fast. I've been walking my dogs now for eleven years and ten years and have never had this happen before. Anyone have any thoughts on this I would appreciate. I have no intention of trying to shoot a dog in this situation for many reasons. Also keep in mind that I would only have one free hand at the most and have to control my dog at the same time this is happening. It wasn't fun.
    Last edited by rcawdor57; 04-07-2013 at 08:49 AM. Reason: grammar
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

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    Regular Member oliverclotheshoff's Avatar
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    maybe a good stiff medium length (cane length for ease of swing) walking stick to use as a defense weapon as needed or a pepper spray that is for animals possible problem with that is spraying your dog\s on accident

    my thoughts
    Last edited by oliverclotheshoff; 04-07-2013 at 09:11 AM.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    I would report the incident. I have been mauled by a dog and it is not something to take lightly. I only survived because my uncle killed the dog as soon as he saw the attack.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oliverclotheshoff View Post
    a pepper spray that is for animals possible problem with that is spraying your dog\s on accident
    In the course of my duties I've sprayed a few dogs with pepper spray over the years. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. One time I sprayed a huge aggressive Husky. In the eyes, snout, and mouth. It didn't do squat. I might as well have spit on him. And no, he wasn't rabid.

    Some (but not all) dogs get totally freaked out by the crackling electrodes of a stun gun.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    I would report the incident. I have been mauled by a dog and it is not something to take lightly. I only survived because my uncle killed the dog as soon as he saw the attack.
    Damn, that's a scary story. Care to share more details?

    Specifically, how did your uncle kill the dog without endangering you? I've always worried about that with animals (they'll get right on their victim), but then again I've only personally witnessed one or two dog attacks.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Damn, that's a scary story. Care to share more details?

    Specifically, how did your uncle kill the dog without endangering you? I've always worried about that with animals (they'll get right on their victim), but then again I've only personally witnessed one or two dog attacks.
    I was a small child, sorry I don't remember exactly my age. He beat the dog off of me with a large stick, after the dog let go he continued to beat the dog for some time. I was taken to the hospital, and told that the dog would never bite me again. The dog had killed a duck when I just happened to stroll upon him, he must of thought I was going to take the duck away.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXn2QVipK2o


    I had one guy tell me his dog does not bite .. was he lying? You be the judge, linked above

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    I had a similar incident happen in Jan. I was out running my normal route with my lab, on a 3 foot leash. All of a sudden there was the neighbors chesapeake behind me growling and barking 20 feet away. I stopped and turned yelled as loud as I could. That slowed him down so I could finsh turning and face him he stopped about 10 feet away showing his teeth.

    My lab being a super freindly dog is wagging is tail wanting to play. I reaching for my spray and yelling clearing my jacket away from my pistol (10 degrees above that day). I took a step towards him giving him commands to go home.

    After about 30 seconds more growls and showing his teeth, a couple more steps seem a lot longer he turned and left to the house.

    I call my neighbor up and told him what happen His words were simple quote (He said you should have shot him).

    We talk abit about training and that he needs to make sure is dog stays around the house . They have a 100 yard plus driveway. He said that is bitch was in heat and that way his male might have been more aggressive. He said he take care of the problem and see that it doesn't happen again. He said any more trouble and the dog is going for a long walk and never coming back.

    I have delt with 100s of dogs in my 33 years as as a LEO, runner and bike rider never had to shoot one, sprayed quite a few and it has worked.

    I think that it helps that I am experience dog trainer and can read dogs fairly well. But it as been close a few times and the dog backed down just before he was going to get shot or the spray did the trick.

    I seen enough dog bites to know that if its me being bite or the dog its going to be the dog.
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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    I had a similar incident happen in Jan. I was out running my normal route with my lab, on a 3 foot leash. All of a sudden there was the neighbors chesapeake behind me growling and barking 20 feet away. I stopped and turned yelled as loud as I could. That slowed him down so I could finsh turning and face him he stopped about 10 feet away showing his teeth.

    My lab being a super freindly dog is wagging is tail wanting to play. I reaching for my spray and yelling clearing my jacket away from my pistol (10 degrees above that day). I took a step towards him giving him commands to go home.

    After about 30 seconds more growls and showing his teeth, a couple more steps seem a lot longer he turned and left to the house.

    I call my neighbor up and told him what happen His words were simple quote (He said you should have shot him).

    We talk abit about training and that he needs to make sure is dog stays around the house . They have a 100 yard plus driveway. He said that is bitch was in heat and that way his male might have been more aggressive. He said he take care of the problem and see that it doesn't happen again. He said any more trouble and the dog is going for a long walk and never coming back.

    I have delt with 100s of dogs in my 33 years as as a LEO, runner and bike rider never had to shoot one, sprayed quite a few and it has worked.

    I think that it helps that I am experience dog trainer and can read dogs fairly well. But it as been close a few times and the dog backed down just before he was going to get shot or the spray did the trick.

    I seen enough dog bites to know that if its me being bite or the dog its going to be the dog.

    Thanks. Your event was scary to say the least. Sounds like you are out in the country a bit and had a moment to clear your weapon & prepare. The attack the other day was instant. I'm heading down the sidewalk towards the corner of the block and the neighbor is heading to the same corner from the other sidewalk. As soon as her dog (she actually had two dogs with her, one is friendly the other is vicious) saw me and my dog it was in motion. She didn't have a harness or collar on him that is appropriate for handling a dog so he ran to the full length of the "retractable leash" and pulled his head out of the collar. He was maybe twenty feet from me and was running at full speed directly toward me & my dog. When the dog attacked me and my dogs the first time I was in my driveway entering the code to open the garage door so we could go inside at the end of our walk. I never saw him coming on the first attack since there is a Cedar tree next to my garage that I was standing next to as their dog pounced on my dog. This time I saw him coming & as he charged I kicked him like a football. I didn't have time to do anything else but kick. Total time from first sight to kick was maybe two seconds. I didn't even have time to push the button on my camera I wear on my coat. It was that quick. If I had not been able to land that blow to his rib cage it would have been bloody and I probably would have gotten to my Glock and shot her dog.

    Well, here is an update: After our "talk" to the guy next door about his dogs the other day he actually listened & bought harnesses and non retractable 6 foot leashes to walk his dogs. They also installed barricades so their dogs cannot get to the front door and run out whenever their young boys open the door (that has happened several times but the vicious dog has not gotten out in the past until the first dog attack). They were lucky their dog didn't go after my other neighbor's Boxers when she walks them. Sooner or later that dog of theirs will be a liability they can't afford.

    Forgot to add that I now have "Direct Stop" to use in the future. It's designed to instantly stop dogs and not harm them as pepper spray may do. I hope I don't have to use it.
    Last edited by rcawdor57; 04-08-2013 at 10:12 AM. Reason: Added comment about Direct Stop.
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by rcawdor57 View Post
    Forgot to add that I now have "Direct Stop" to use in the future. It's designed to instantly stop dogs and not harm them as pepper spray may do. I hope I don't have to use it.
    Citronella based Spray Shield/Direct Stop won't even stop mosquitoes. Skunk spray "interrupts attacks by surprising and distracting animals with a powerful and unusual scent."

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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Citronella based Spray Shield/Direct Stop won't even stop mosquitoes. Skunk spray "interrupts attacks by surprising and distracting animals with a powerful and unusual scent."

    I was wondering about that myself. I was looking at "Bear spray" but listened to the sales person who insisted "Direct Stop" would be much better. So much for that! LOL. I'm going to head out today & get some Bear Spray. Thanks for the info!
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

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    I was taught to identify griz' scat by sight and odor, seeing bits of cheechako-bells mixed in and smelling OC that the bears think is bear-tabasco.

    They're beasts, shoot them, bury them and keep your mouth shut. Dead dogs wag no tails.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Face View Post
    Not a good plan kicking and then threatening to kill your neighbor's pet. Sometimes payback can be a #####. One has to be very, very sure about what constitutes provocation in order to kill someone's pet. It does not take much to be charged with felony animal cruelty or abuse.
    Not a good plan letting your pet get out of control. It does not take much for someone to shoot it in self-defense, legally.

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    Responding with the kick sounds right in that situation. One does what one needs do to at the time.
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Face View Post
    Hmm, I don't see anything repealing the right to self-defense against dangerous dogs.

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    Face: No where does it state I need to wait to be attacked (i.e., literally in the process of being mauled) before I'm able to use deadly force against an animal. I have a reasonable expectation to not feel threatened or intimidated by unrestrained animals as I go about my business in public places. Therefore, under the right circumstances when I've determined the "AOJ" criteria is satisfied I have no problem using deadly force against an animal -- or human for that matter -- when it's evident I have no reasonable means of retreat or viable less-than-lethal option available. This also means I do not have to have video and the blessings of some authority before doing so.

    If you're not the latest reincarnations of logibles and you're merely trying to interject the message that due diligence before deadly force is a good idea, there's nothing wrong with that and you'd be correct (and also acting like Mr. Obvious). Your decision to link to irrelevant animal cruelty jargon when the OP is clearly an animal lover and is looking to do everything but hurt this animal leads me to believe you're not here with friendly intent.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Face View Post
    What one individual perceives as a threat by a neighbor's dog may not actually be one. The individual who started this thread I guess should video record one of these altercations and contact the proper authorities. Let the authorities decide what is and is not.
    Your joking right? Please tell me you are joking? Have you ever been bite, attacked, mauled? Let me get this straight, a person has a dog with bared teeth coming at them, charging somewhere around 30 mph, with the ability to rip their throat out. AND YOU WANT THEM TO VIDEO TAPE IT?

    Amazing just amazing!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Face View Post
    Wisconsin Assembly Bill 401
    3/23/2012 Asm. Failed to pass pursuant to Senate Joint Resolution 1
    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/201...y/20120323/_64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    I was taught to identify griz' scat by sight and odor, seeing bits of cheechako-bells mixed in and smelling OC that the bears think is bear-tabasco. They're beasts, shoot them, bury them and keep your mouth shut. Dead dogs wag no tails.
    http://boston.cbslocal.com/2013/04/0...-his-backyard/

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    Last edited by Nightmare; 04-08-2013 at 12:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Face View Post
    So where does it say the pet's charging speed? Where does it say what breed or size of the the neighbor's pet? Since similar incidents have happened in the past according to the thread starter, one could be prepared to video tape it.
    Remove the emotional component. Write/say/think BEAST rather than dog, pet, cat, cow ...

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Face View Post
    So where does it say the pet's charging speed? Where does it say what breed or size of the the neighbor's pet? Since similar incidents have happened in the past according to the thread starter, one could be prepared to video tape it.
    Any person with a small amount of common sense knows that dogs charge at a alarming rate, much faster than a person. They are capable of 30 mph bursts of speed. I would hardly think any reasonable person being charged by a animal intent on doing harm would be thinking of video taping it. It is either a joke or lunacy.

    I was mauled by a border collie as a child, a breed that is normally thought of as docile, they are fast, very fast.

    The Border Collie — Built For Speed And Cornering
    Long acknowledged for being one of the top Einsteins in the dog world, the workaholic Border Collie is designed to move quickly and make hairpin turns in order to direct large flocks over what are sometimes long distances. Border Collies can corner like fine sports cars, maintaining control and speed through turns, skills that also serve them well in canine sports such as agility, fly ball and flying disc competitions. These black-and-white torpedoes have been clocked at speeds of up to 30 mph. And noted for their intense gaze, Border Collies are recognized for keeping their eye on the prize.

    “To be honest, in a race between a Greyhound and a Border Collie, my bets will always be on the Border Collie,” Dr. Zink says.


    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...#slide=1568419
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 04-08-2013 at 01:33 PM.
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    Regular Member Plankton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Face View Post
    Once again, do you have evidence of the size or breed of the neighbor's pet involved in the thead starters incident? Do you have special knowledge of the intent of the neighbor's pet? Was anybody actually attacked and bitten in the previous incident mentioned or the current one?

    We are debating over an incident involving a neighbor's pet that could have been a large dog such as a mature German Shepard or a small dog such as a miniature poodle. It is actually quite redundant since neither you or I know the facts.
    Where ya from there, Face?
    Last edited by Plankton; 04-08-2013 at 03:00 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Face View Post
    Not a good plan kicking and then threatening to kill your neighbor's pet. Sometimes payback can be a #####. One has to be very, very sure about what constitutes provocation in order to kill someone's pet. It does not take much to be charged with felony animal cruelty or abuse.
    If I were attacked and able to fend off the animal and it resulted in the death of the animal so be it. I would not just let it rip me to pieces befire I took action.

    I lost part of one of my fingers bout five years ago when a dog lunged at me. He was very fast an I could not move fast enough before he bit me. That 1ST bite removed about two inches of flesh from my pinky finger on my right hand. The 2ND or 3RD bite punched a hole through the palm of my left hand. The 3RD or 2ND bite he locked down on my right hand punching a hole through from top and out my palm. Strangely the pain did not begin for 3 or 4 minutes after he broke off the attack. I do not think I will wait for a dog to get close just to see what happens next time.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by benraines View Post
    If I were attacked and able to fend off the animal and it resulted in the death of the animal so be it. I would not just let it rip me to pieces befire I took action.

    I lost part of one of my fingers bout five years ago when a dog lunged at me. He was very fast an I could not move fast enough before he bit me. That 1ST bite removed about two inches of flesh from my pinky finger on my right hand. The 2ND or 3RD bite punched a hole through the palm of my left hand. The 3RD or 2ND bite he locked down on my right hand punching a hole through from top and out my palm. Strangely the pain did not begin for 3 or 4 minutes after he broke off the attack. I do not think I will wait for a dog to get close just to see what happens next time.
    I will not take chances, if a dog charges, it gets shot. I will not be mauled ever again. Same goes for animals that run loose on the highway. They get in my way they get run over. I suggest the pet owners actually take care of their pets, instead of whining about their animals being shot or run over.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 04-08-2013 at 08:00 PM.
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    Regular Member AaronS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Face View Post
    Not a good plan kicking and then threatening to kill your neighbor's pet. Sometimes payback can be a #####. One has to be very, very sure about what constitutes provocation in order to kill someone's pet. It does not take much to be charged with felony animal cruelty or abuse.
    If I am ever walking my dog, and your dog comes running at me, full force, off leash, teeth out and the whole nine yards??? I will stop the threat, to the best of my ability. Your dog will not win his last fight with me if I see him comming.
    And, you should have never owned it in the first place.

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