Is "It looks fully auto" RAS?

davidmcbeth · Apr 11, 2013

sudden valley gunner said:
unfortunately they have built up a system where our only recourse is "civil".

That's not entirely correct ... you may have citizens arrest authority in your state ... of course, you take on the risk. You have no immunity under the law for an incorrect/improper arrest.

I have threatened a couple of cops with citizens arrest. They look at ya like you are a loon but then mull it over and decide if they are willing to resist such an arrest and if they actually have RAS or not. In every case, it those cases where it was clear that they did not have any reason to detain me, they said "don't come back" or some other useless retort.

Just because they are cops do not make them immune from a citizen arrest ~ and a bad arrest? That's a civil matter.

Only 3 times have I threatened a citizen arrest against a LEO .. twice when they wanted/were taking an action against me and once when I saw a cop beating a guy who appeared to be unconscious (he got a little bit carried away).

Fallschirjmäger · Apr 11, 2013

Is "I've detained you because in my professional opinion your firearm looks like it's fully automatic"...
any more defensible in court than ...
"I've detained you because in my professional opinion the shoes you are wearing look exactly like the 'shoe bomber's' shoes and I suspect they are laden with explosives."

v.

The firearm didn't "look fully automatic" it was just that he lacked the education, and experience to determine that a sub-$500, .22 caliber, 16-inch barreled carbine wasn't a $15,000, 9mm, 9-inch barreled, fully automatic submachine gun.

davidmcbeth · Apr 11, 2013

Maybe the "cop" is a person impersonating a cop .. hmmmm

Citizen · Apr 11, 2013

davidmcbeth said:
Maybe the "cop" is a person impersonating a cop .. hmmmm

Maybe the cop is a cop impersonating a thinking human being.

Fixed it for you.

Grapeshot · Apr 11, 2013

Originally Posted by davidmcbeth

Maybe the "cop" is a person impersonating a cop .. hmmmm

Maybe the cop is a cop impersonating a thinking human being.

Citizen said:
Fixed it for you.

Really? Seems more likely it was just maybe another way to pile on the negativism.

arentol · Apr 11, 2013

davidmcbeth said:
Maybe the "cop" is a person impersonating a cop .. hmmmm

Hmmm... Perhaps the proper retort to the police officer is: "I am a firearms expert and as such I know that a real police officer would know this is not an automatic weapon. Therefore I must assume you are impersonating a police officer and will have to place you under citizens arrest until real police officers arrive."

davidmcbeth · Apr 11, 2013

Grapeshot said:
Really? Seems more likely it was just maybe another way to pile on the negativism.

Cops are just employees .. they'll do what their boss tells them to do ... if not, they'll be fired and another one who will is ready to take his place ..

MKEgal · Apr 11, 2013

OC for ME said:
View attachment 10246 View attachment 10247
Which one is full auto?

The one on the right, with the selector switch. So unless someone is left-handed, it would look just like the G17 to an observer.

eye95 said:
So, back to the original question, can "It looks fully automatic" be RAS?

I'd say no. The officer has probably only seen a picture of a true automatic firearm. They're so rare it's unreasonable to think that one would show up in real life, and I'd wager that the vast majority of true automatics owned by citizens (rather than agencies) are owned legally.

davidmcbeth said:
Maybe the "cop" is a person impersonating a cop

An interesting idea.
So when someone appearing to be an officer does something against the law, should we call 911 to report someone impersonating an officer? Would that give reasonable suspicion for me to believe that the person was not an officer, so I don't have to do anything s/he says? Because of course, officers wouldn't break the law, right? They know better, right?

Grapeshot · Apr 11, 2013

davidmcbeth said:
Cops are just employees .. they'll do what their boss tells them to do ... if not, they'll be fired and another one who will is ready to take his place ..

Sure they are......and by that implication so are doctors, nurses, firemen, military et al ad absurdem.

davidmcbeth · Apr 12, 2013

Grapeshot said:
Sure they are......and by that implication so are doctors, nurses, firemen, military et al ad absurdem.

Have you refused to follow an unlawful request by your employer and then got fired for it? Hardly "absurdem" Grape ... fact of life.

What about all those cops during Katrina? You make it sound like you don't think they'll come and take your gun away...

Believe you, they don't care about your rights when their boss tells them to do something; they are just worried about their fat pensions.

Its only when they believe that "gee wiz, this guy actually may be a threat to me collecting that big fat pension" do they think twice...

Grapeshot · Apr 12, 2013

davidmcbeth said:
Have you refused to follow an unlawful request by your employer and then got fired for it? Hardly "absurdem" Grape ... fact of life.

What about all those cops during Katrina? You make it sound like you don't think they'll come and take your gun away...

Believe you, they don't care about your rights when their boss tells them to do something; they are just worried about their fat pensions.

Its only when they believe that "gee wiz, this guy actually may be a threat to me collecting that big fat pension" do they think twice...

Refused? Yep - refused a number of such over the years.

Fired or disciplined for it? Nope not ever, not once.

I happen to believe that the manner in which people function in their jobs and even why some chose a particular profession is on a higher plain - more indicative of their goals, character + depth of convictions.

OC for ME · Apr 12, 2013

Grapeshot said:
Sure they are......and by that implication so are doctors, nurses, firemen, military et al ad absurdem.

Doctors is too broad a term. Some doctors are employees and some doctors are the boss. Even some nurses, not many mind you, are the boss.

Your premise can not be refuted. Saying no and stomping your foot, at your boss, will likely invite termination. A thoughtful approach to address a "issue" rarely evokes a termination.

+1 to you Sir.

sudden valley gunner · Apr 13, 2013

davidmcbeth said:
That's not entirely correct ... you may have citizens arrest authority in your state ... of course, you take on the risk. You have no immunity under the law for an incorrect/improper arrest.

I have threatened a couple of cops with citizens arrest. They look at ya like you are a loon but then mull it over and decide if they are willing to resist such an arrest and if they actually have RAS or not. In every case, it those cases where it was clear that they did not have any reason to detain me, they said "don't come back" or some other useless retort.

Just because they are cops do not make them immune from a citizen arrest ~ and a bad arrest? That's a civil matter.

Only 3 times have I threatened a citizen arrest against a LEO .. twice when they wanted/were taking an action against me and once when I saw a cop beating a guy who appeared to be unconscious (he got a little bit carried away).

True there is also private prosecution.

The most easiest path that might have results is Civil. All the other paths are very difficult and might lead to the "civilian" being dead.

Is "It looks fully auto" RAS?

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