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Senators Strike Deal On Background Checks

Beretta92FSLady

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2009
Messages
5,264
Location
In My Coffee
You didn't read the guncite page, did you? The 2A is for any type of insurrection that would put the people under tyranny, regardless of the source of such being domestic or foreign, private or governmental. Read what the founders said.

I'm not trying to throw it around, but look at when I signed up to this forum, and my number count...I've been here for a while; and before this page, I was a frequenter of two other pages similar to this one, but definitely not as cool!

The Founding Fathers individuals intent--not Collective--is acknowledged, duly noted; but frankly, I couldn't care less of their intent. The current generation of Americans ought not be held hostage to the non-consensus view of individuals who's bones are dust.

I hit your link, and reject, right out the gate, the premise, and I'm not only going to explain the Why, also, I'm going to explain how I put little stock in the syntax of this first line:

The original intent and purpose of the Second Amendment was to preserve and guarantee, not grant, the pre-existing right of individuals to keep and bear arms.


Let's delve into the line I provided, from the link you provided, and insist that I Click:

The original intent

I agree, it is likely to be the Original Intent.

and purpose

It is possible that the purpose and intent can be in agreement.

of the Second Amendment

Yes, there is a Second Amendment, and it is worded in a particular way.


Was? You mean, at the time it was written? What is the Intent, and Purpose, now? The Was is not in dispute here.

preserve and

It's starting to get real sticky here, and I will explain shortly....continue


guarantee,

OK, let's continue...

not grant, the


In application, the Act of the creation of a Constitution is the Granting to the People.

pre-existing right of individuals to


Pre-existing is another one of those fancy words like: Choice; Freedom; Liberty.--all these words mean one thing in theory, and another in application.

keep and bear arms.

Yes, we are talking about Keeping, and Bearing firearms.


I don't care what the Founding Fathers said. What I do care about is how the Constitution, right now, is being Interpreted.
 
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E6chevron

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2011
Messages
528
Location
Milwaukee Wisconsin
You ma'am, fail to understand the purpose of the 2A. It is not about hunting, or target shooting, or even so much personal self-defense against crime. And yes, UBCs will lead to universal gun registration, as it is that in effect. That, if you can't understand, nullifies the purpose of the 2A. I have no idea what you think the 2A is about if not for the people's defense against tyranny?

What good is it for the people to be armed if the tyrant knows who has what guns? Answer me that.

BTW, I read the bill, it's horrible. And I do think.

Here's the text if you would like to read it:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-113s649pcs/pdf/BILLS-113s649pcs.pdf

The link above, goes to the ORIGINAL S.649 bill introduced by Sen. Harry Reid March 21, 2013. It is quite different from the proposed substitute amendment Published April 10th by Sen. Toomey. The link and text and Table of Contents are in this topic: http://forum.opencarry.org./forums/...ond-Amendment-Rights-Protection-Act-Full-Text
 

Neplusultra

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
2,224
Location
Christiansburg, Virginia, USA
"I don't care what the Founding Fathers said. What I do care about is how the Constitution, right now, is being Interpreted."

So original intent has no meaning to you? Are laws to be interpreted however we wish then?
 

Neplusultra

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
2,224
Location
Christiansburg, Virginia, USA
""(t)(1) Beginning on the date that is 180 days after the date of enactment of this subsection and except as provided in paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for any person other than a licensed dealer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed importer to complete the transfer of a firearm to any other person who is not licensed under this chapter, if such transfer occurs-
"(A) at a gun show or event, on the curtilage thereof; or
"(B) pursuant to an advertisement, posting, display or other listing on the Internet or in a publication by the transferor of his intent to transfer, or the transferee of his intent to acquire, the firearm."


Does anyone see a giant "Gun Show Loophole" here? It seems that all one has to do is go to a gun show, meet someone with a gun you'd like to buy, and then leave the premises. Like go across the street to actually do the transaction/transfer......
 
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optiksguy

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2011
Messages
69
Location
Town of Herndon, VA
General Welfare, Commerce Clause (regulation of)--it is forever tied to Commerce Clause until SCOTUS declares the Law not Constitutional, or Congress repeals the Law.

No.
Lex specialis implies that a specific law (shall not be infringed) supersedes a general law (power to regulate commerce, power to ... provide for ... the general welfare). So these two clauses can not justify regulating firearms. The only avenue is it argue that whatever regulation is proposed is not an "infringement". Clearly this is not what happens in practice, but it should be.

IANAL
 

Beretta92FSLady

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2009
Messages
5,264
Location
In My Coffee
"I don't care what the Founding Fathers said. What I do care about is how the Constitution, right now, is being Interpreted."

So original intent has no meaning to you? Are laws to be interpreted however we wish then?

Original Intend not only has no meaning to me, it has no definitive meaning, never has, likely never will.


You may interpret a Law however you wish; it's the consequence you better watch out for if you're going against the grain.
 

Beretta92FSLady

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2009
Messages
5,264
Location
In My Coffee
No.
Lex specialis implies that a specific law (shall not be infringed) supersedes a general law (power to regulate commerce, power to ... provide for ... the general welfare). So these two clauses can not justify regulating firearms. The only avenue is it argue that whatever regulation is proposed is not an "infringement". Clearly this is not what happens in practice, but it should be.

IANAL

Seriously, I don't want to go through this again.

Yes, it is clearly not what happens in Practice...it WILL NOT happen in Practice, ever. "Should be" has it's place in the brains of an idealist going through the motions of philosophical masturbation.
 

ron73440

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
474
Location
Suffolk VA
Original Intend not only has no meaning to me, it has no definitive meaning, never has, likely never will.


You may interpret a Law however you wish; it's the consequence you better watch out for if you're going against the grain.

Sarcasm/ Because we live in a democracy so the only thing that matters is popular opinion/Sarcasm

I believe the intent behind the Constitution matters, but I guess I'm just an "idealist going through the motions of philosophical masturbation."
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
Some folks have had the idea of democracy drummed into their heads from a very young age, and accept it without question. It has become axiomatic for them, and you ain't gonna change it.

Now, if you were posting with someone being rational and consistent, who was earnestly participating in debate, who had a genuine interest in an exchange of ideas, it might be worth participating in discussions with someone who is axiomatically opposed to the concept of "a nation of laws and not of men." In that case, you'd still have zero chance of changing that person's mind, but the exchange would be enlightening to others.

In this case, however, the debate is dragged down to such a childish level as to be annoying to most rational people.

It is playing games with those who respond. The responders start out trying to be rational and honest, but eventually stoop to playing the same games. The net result is to make the whole discussion look idiotic, and by extension, the whole site and all of us--which I truly believe is its trollish goal.

Let it be. If you must respond to one specific point, one single poster should do so once and then move on. Thread after thread is ruined by these pointless "debates" where the same points are argued in post after post in increasingly childish manners. It is a waste of time and damages the site and the movement. Let it be.

Most of the posters here have figured this out, and never (or very rarely) post to it. I wish the remaining few would adopt this tactic.

Let it be. Stop feeding it.
 

ron73440

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
474
Location
Suffolk VA
Some folks have had the idea of democracy drummed into their heads from a very young age, and accept it without question. It has become axiomatic for them, and you ain't gonna change it.

Now, if you were posting with someone being rational and consistent, who was earnestly participating in debate, who had a genuine interest in an exchange of ideas, it might be worth participating in discussions with someone who is axiomatically opposed to the concept of "a nation of laws and not of men." In that case, you'd still have zero chance of changing that person's mind, but the exchange would be enlightening to others.

In this case, however, the debate is dragged down to such a childish level as to be annoying to most rational people.

It is playing games with those who respond. The responders start out trying to be rational and honest, but eventually stoop to playing the same games. The net result is to make the whole discussion look idiotic, and by extension, the whole site and all of us--which I truly believe is its trollish goal.

Let it be. If you must respond to one specific point, one single poster should do so once and then move on. Thread after thread is ruined by these pointless "debates" where the same points are argued in post after post in increasingly childish manners. It is a waste of time and damages the site and the movement. Let it be.

Most of the posters here have figured this out, and never (or very rarely) post to it. I wish the remaining few would adopt this tactic.

Let it be. Stop feeding it.

I know, I tried to engage her when I was brand new here, and have since given up.

Somehow that post got me to respond, against my better judgement.

I'm not sure why, I really do know better.
 
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marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
"Should be" has it's place in the brains of an idealist going through the motions of philosophical masturbation.

Beretta92FSLady has, for some inexplicable reason, artificially placed a hard line between what she considers "reality" and "philosophy". That this is a perspective without merit seems lost on her.

First of all, it's impossible to analyze the "real" without philosophy. It's even further impossible to decide what might be made better, and the reasons why we might do this.

You see this in her: a constant refrain to "do something about it", ironic coming from her because her anti-philosophical platform has led to a status-quo conservatism which would embarrass the staunchest neocon. (Which goes to show that the notion that "conservatism" is automatically a pro-liberty stance is baloney, at least when the last century of tradition is one of incessant encroachment upon right and liberty, delivered equally by both the "progressive" left and the "conservative" right.)

It sounds like tough talk, until you realize she's incapable of even identifying change she would like to make. But you can be damn sure, if she could, she'd do something about it. :rolleyes:

Back in the real world, philosophy is the foundation on which all political change, good or bad, occurs. Even xenophobic, populist movements are driven by (bad) philosophy.

I am considered by those who know me to be very persuasive, and a tough debater (especially in impromptu, informal discussions). I routinely observe myself having convinced someone of some or other difficult, controversial position, often some time after our debate on the subject appeared to end in stalemate. And you know what? (Folks on the forum should recognize this to be true: ) I almost never resort to utilitarian primary arguments. My arguments are always moral, backed with a bonus icing of reference to fact and efficacy. They are, in a word: philosophical.

My advice: don't listen to B92FSL when she tries to distinguish the "real" from the "philosophical". Those who do render themselves impotent, intellectually and in "meatspace".

...it might be worth participating in discussions with someone who is axiomatically opposed to the concept of "a nation of laws and not of men."

The irony runs deep with this one (and with the immensely unimpressive John Adams). Of course, the idea Adams was trying to convey is that the final authority ought to be the law, rather than a single person (a king, for instance). I imagine eye think he's made a clever reference to Obama (Bush III) and his partisan fantasy that Obama is any more of an autocrat that was Bush II, or Bush IV will be when the GOP snakes win next time around. It should be no surprise, though, that eye95 champions this view: his law-and-order statism is tempered by a desire for liberty only on those issues where the law is out of alignment with his own lifestyle.

But this reveals a statism so deep it fails to understand the true nature of tyranny, instead conflating a momentary alignment of law with one's own belief as a lack of tyranny.

Take, for instance, Hitler. Few would reject the notion that Hitler was a demagogue, a individual who imposed his will on a nation, and who therefore created a "nation of a man" (himself). What Adams' childishly simplistic perspective fails to take into account was that Hitler was also obsessed with the rule of law. Everything Hitler did was legal. He carefully crafted the law to be precisely as he desired. And so, Nazi Germany was both a "nation of laws" and a "nation of men." The powerful men had ultimate authority, with the law nothing but their instrument in achieving this.

To a statist, the Adams quote seems deep and powerful. To a minarchist (or sometimes closet anarchist like myself), it's a sad joke. A "nation of laws" is nothing to aspire to unless the law is strictly and exclusively just, moral, and nonaggressive. Our law is little more than a kick in the face to morality or non-aggression.

Which is where the second level of irony comes in. Our country should be a "nation of men" – not powerful, despotic men – but the people. That's not to say a majority should be given carte blanche to abuse or disenfranchise a minority. It is to say that we – the people – ought to be government's interest.

Today, we have a government with "law enforcement", individuals whose job it is to enforce the law simply for existing, not because its violation created a victim, or because they personally believe its violation represented a wrong. We have a government which imposes laws upon the people (without even popular support), stripping us of our rights and jailing us for violating archaic, Victorian social mores (puritanism is not moral). We have a country where most people oppose gun control, but the government tries to pass it anyway. And they would then enforce it using their "Law Enfarcement Officers" who place the law on an altar above freedom, life, and basic human right and dignity. The same thing applies to the perpetuation of marijuana prohibition. And, worst of all, this is all done fairly overtly to further government's interest, at the explicit expense of The Peoples' freedoms or property. The much-ballyhooed law, in short, serves nothing but itself.

I'd say, therefore, that what we have today is precisely a "nation of laws and not of men", and that this is a terrible thing. The law should never be placed above the rights of men, nor should it be deified or lauded for its own sake.

I'd also say that Adams was an authoritarian, statist dolt.

The irony is furthered by the fact that, as a statist progressive, B92FSL is as much a proponent of a "nation of laws" as is eye95. They would merely squabble over which laws to aggressively impose on each other, and collaterally on the rest of us.
 
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eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
Again, folks, if you want to know what I believe, please read what I write, not the lies others write about my views.

It is only rational to do so.
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
Folks, just pay attention to the behavior you note in this thread when you read our posts later. It should shine a telling light on what you read.

Moving on.
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
Again, folks, if you want to know what I believe, please read what I write, not the lies others write about my views.

It is only rational to do so.

:rolleyes:

Such a victim complex, going on about *lies* again.

I'm pretty sure any reasoning adult would conclude anything anybody else says about you or your posts is their opinion, and therefore not capable of being a lie or not-a-lie. Lying doesn't come into it one way or the other – unless of course a person explicitly says you said something you didn't say, which I personally have never done, hysterical protestations to the contrary on your part notwithstanding.

Yes, eye, you get to have your views. We're all very proud of you. Know what else? I get to have my views about your views, too. And my view is that you're a statist who only cares about the liberties you personally exercise. That's not "lying" about the things you've said, it's me providing analysis and opinion of them. Playing victim and insinuating that others are "lying" just makes it look like you can't handle the heat, in which case you probably ought to stay out of the kitchen.

By the way, your cute little tactic of intentionally avoiding being specific isn't nearly so clever as you think it is. The notion is, I'm sure, that you can continue to pretend you "ignore" my posts (plausible deniability), and therefore continue to play victim ("people are lying about me!") without ever having to come up with and defend a single instance of anyone actually lying about you or your posts. This way you can throw the victim card out whenever you want, make insinuations (read: veiled accusations) of lying, all without ever having to stand by your claims. Trust me, everyone can see right through this.

All this is quite ridiculous considering my post was 90% about the John Adams quote and its applicability to today, and the two or three comments I made actually referencing anything you said were quite clearly my opinion.

Folks, just pay attention to the behavior you note in this thread when you read our posts later. It should shine a telling light on what you read.

Yes, folks, please so do. Please pay very close attention to the behavior on display here.

Note that eye had no problem throwing out the "L" word, but when challenged did exactly as I predicted, and refused to justify his claim of "lies" being told.
 
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ron73440

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
474
Location
Suffolk VA
Beretta92FSLady has, for some inexplicable reason, artificially placed a hard line between what she considers "reality" and "philosophy". That this is a perspective without merit seems lost on her.

First of all, it's impossible to analyze the "real" without philosophy. It's even further impossible to decide what might be made better, and the reasons why we might do this.

You see this in her: a constant refrain to "do something about it", ironic coming from her because her anti-philosophical platform has led to a status-quo conservatism which would embarrass the staunchest neocon. (Which goes to show that the notion that "conservatism" is automatically a pro-liberty stance is baloney, at least when the last century of tradition is one of incessant encroachment upon right and liberty, delivered equally by both the "progressive" left and the "conservative" right.)

It sounds like tough talk, until you realize she's incapable of even identifying change she would like to make. But you can be damn sure, if she could, she'd do something about it. :rolleyes:

Back in the real world, philosophy is the foundation on which all political change, good or bad, occurs. Even xenophobic, populist movements are driven by (bad) philosophy.

I am considered by those who know me to be very persuasive, and a tough debater (especially in impromptu, informal discussions). I routinely observe myself having convinced someone of some or other difficult, controversial position, often some time after our debate on the subject appeared to end in stalemate. And you know what? (Folks on the forum should recognize this to be true: ) I almost never resort to utilitarian primary arguments. My arguments are always moral, backed with a bonus icing of reference to fact and efficacy. They are, in a word: philosophical.

My advice: don't listen to B92FSL when she tries to distinguish the "real" from the "philosophical". Those who do render themselves impotent, intellectually and in "meatspace".



The irony runs deep with this one (and with the immensely unimpressive John Adams). Of course, the idea Adams was trying to convey is that the final authority ought to be the law, rather than a single person (a king, for instance). I imagine eye think he's made a clever reference to Obama (Bush III) and his partisan fantasy that Obama is any more of an autocrat that was Bush II, or Bush IV will be when the GOP snakes win next time around. It should be no surprise, though, that eye95 champions this view: his law-and-order statism is tempered by a desire for liberty only on those issues where the law is out of alignment with his own lifestyle.

But this reveals a statism so deep it fails to understand the true nature of tyranny, instead conflating a momentary alignment of law with one's own belief as a lack of tyranny.

Take, for instance, Hitler. Few would reject the notion that Hitler was a demagogue, a individual who imposed his will on a nation, and who therefore created a "nation of a man" (himself). What Adams' childishly simplistic perspective fails to take into account was that Hitler was also obsessed with the rule of law. Everything Hitler did was legal. He carefully crafted the law to be precisely as he desired. And so, Nazi Germany was both a "nation of laws" and a "nation of men." The powerful men had ultimate authority, with the law nothing but their instrument in achieving this.

To a statist, the Adams quote seems deep and powerful. To a minarchist (or sometimes closet anarchist like myself), it's a sad joke. A "nation of laws" is nothing to aspire to unless the law is strictly and exclusively just, moral, and nonaggressive. Our law is little more than a kick in the face to morality or non-aggression.

Which is where the second level of irony comes in. Our country should be a "nation of men" – not powerful, despotic men – but the people. That's not to say a majority should be given carte blanche to abuse or disenfranchise a minority. It is to say that we – the people – ought to be government's interest.

Today, we have a government with "law enforcement", individuals whose job it is to enforce the law simply for existing, not because its violation created a victim, or because they personally believe its violation represented a wrong. We have a government which imposes laws upon the people (without even popular support), stripping us of our rights and jailing us for violating archaic, Victorian social mores (puritanism is not moral). We have a country where most people oppose gun control, but the government tries to pass it anyway. And they would then enforce it using their "Law Enfarcement Officers" who place the law on an altar above freedom, life, and basic human right and dignity. The same thing applies to the perpetuation of marijuana prohibition. And, worst of all, this is all done fairly overtly to further government's interest, at the explicit expense of The Peoples' freedoms or property. The much-ballyhooed law, in short, serves nothing but itself.

I'd say, therefore, that what we have today is precisely a "nation of laws and not of men", and that this is a terrible thing. The law should never be placed above the rights of men, nor should it be deified or lauded for its own sake.

I'd also say that Adams was an authoritarian, statist dolt.

The irony is furthered by the fact that, as a statist progressive, B92FSL is as much a proponent of a "nation of laws" as is eye95. They would merely squabble over which laws to aggressively impose on each other, and collaterally on the rest of us.

That's interesting, I've always interpreted "Nation of laws, not men" to mean that law applies to everyone regardless of politics or money involved and if we had a "Nation of men, not laws" then the law isn't the most important thing, it's the men in charge who can place themselves above the law.

I do agree that we do have too many laws at every level(Local, State, and Federal) and it seems these are selectively enforced, depending on how cozy you are with the governement.

I try to stay optimistic about changing the direction of this country, but it seems for every half step liberty gains, we lose two, and most people don't care because they trust the government and "that could never happen here."
 

Beretta92FSLady

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2009
Messages
5,264
Location
In My Coffee
That's interesting, I've always interpreted "Nation of laws, not men" to mean that law applies to everyone regardless of politics or money involved and if we had a "Nation of men, not laws" then the law isn't the most important thing, it's the men in charge who can place themselves above the law.

I do agree that we do have too many laws at every level(Local, State, and Federal) and it seems these are selectively enforced, depending on how cozy you are with the governement.

I try to stay optimistic about changing the direction of this country, but it seems for every half step liberty gains, we lose two, and most people don't care because they trust the government and "that could never happen here."

You seem to think there were better times under the Law, in the past.

We are a Nation of Men, period.
 
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