Accidental discharge in own home = felony

Citizen · Apr 11, 2013

marshaul said:
That's somewhat mollifying.

What do you suppose was the reasoning behind the frat house case? A misdemeanor might be sensible, but they charged him with the felony, despite absence of recklessness or malice.

Hard to say for sure. Could be an anti-gun cop or prosecutor. Could be the charges were later dropped or changed. Could be they found something that made it, shall we say, less than accidental.

I'm also concerned about this line from the story, emphasis mine: "In Albemarle County, it is legal to possess a firearm as long as the owner has a valid driver's license and undergoes a proper screening process."

Huh!?!

marshaul · Apr 11, 2013

Citizen said:
I'm also concerned about this line from the story, emphasis mine: "In Albemarle County, it is legal to possess a firearm as long as the owner has a valid driver's license and undergoes a proper screening process."

Huh!?!

Yeah, you gotta wonder where they come up with that stuff.

A driver's license? Really? :lol:

WalkingWolf · Apr 11, 2013

marshaul said:
That's somewhat mollifying.

What do you suppose was the reasoning behind the frat house case? A misdemeanor might be sensible, but they charged him with the felony, despite absence of recklessness or malice.

Absence of malice~yes. Absence of recklessness~absolutely reckless, stupid, dangerous, and fortunate no one was killed. Maybe charging with a felony was extreme, maybe not. If this ND happened from horseplay then yes he deserves the felony.

TFred · Apr 11, 2013

Citizen said:
Hard to say for sure. Could be an anti-gun cop or prosecutor. Could be the charges were later dropped or changed. Could be they found something that made it, shall we say, less than accidental.

I'm also concerned about this line from the story, emphasis mine: "In Albemarle County, it is legal to possess a firearm as long as the owner has a valid driver's license and undergoes a proper screening process."

Huh!?!

I pointed that out earlier in the thread. It wasn't quoted, so I suspect it was an error on the author's part. The story is 2 years old anyway, the author has probably since graduated.

TFred

Citizen · Apr 11, 2013

marshaul said:
Yeah, you gotta wonder where they come up with that stuff.

A driver's license? Really? :lol:

Yeah. My great-grandmother never learned to drive. Small town, everything within walking distance, and all that. She was pretty fiesty even into her later years. Kept a revolver in the nightstand, don't you know.

I'm also concerned about that screening process. Ouch! I wonder if they use a fine mesh like an archaeologist, or a course mesh like a quarry sorting out gravel. Do they go all TSA on you and make you strip, or can you wear denim during the process?

marshaul · Apr 11, 2013

WalkingWolf said:
Absence of malice~yes. Absence of recklessness~absolutely reckless, stupid, dangerous, and fortunate no one was killed. Maybe charging with a felony was extreme, maybe not. If this ND happened from horseplay then yes he deserves the felony.

According to a member who is a respected defense attorney here in Virginia:

user said:
The usual charge filed against folks who do something like that is "reckless handling of a firearm", a misdemeanor. Even there, though, "reckless" requires proof of a willful disregard for the safety of others; mere negligence won't cut it.

It seems fairly straightforward to argue that an accident isn't "willful" disregard.

WalkingWolf · Apr 11, 2013

marshaul said:
According to a member who is a respected defense attorney here in Virginia:

It seems fairly straightforward to argue that an accident isn't "willful" disregard.

IF indeed it was a accident and not negligence, or GROSS negligence, such as playing quick draw. If you have more information on exactly what took place we would all probably like to hear them.

And take note that USER said "usual" not stating that it was the required to be charged as a misdemeanor. Playing quick draw would IMO clearly be reckless.

davidmcbeth · Apr 11, 2013

marshaul;1924432 but they charged him with the felony said:
They charged him because HE gave them the information needed to charge him. You'll find out, if it goes to trial, which it won't -- he'll plead it out.

You have gun, you shoot gun .. police come over ... open door=arrested ..... keep door closed=cop gets pissed off and leaves

bbMurphy · Apr 11, 2013

Results of felony charge agains Mr. Renardy

For those that are interested, the final disposition of the class 6 felony charge against David Renardy was not prosecuted ( Nolle Prosequi ). Using the General District Court online inquiry system gives this result for case # GC11003716-00:

Disposition Information

Final Disposition : Nolle Prosequi

(adding a link to the GDC inquiry system... http://epwsgdp1.courts.state.va.us/gdcourts )

POPS VA · Apr 11, 2013

marshaul said:
According to a member who is a respected defense attorney here in Virginia:

It seems fairly straightforward to argue that an accident isn't "willful" disregard.

Marshaul
I agree with you, but in my 60 plus years on this planet I have seen some ADs and NDs
To be a little more clear, NDs happen because someone wasn't observing basic safety rules.
In my personal experience my step brother killed a kid, 11 years old. It was horseplay. He deserved
what a 17 yr old boy should have gotten, 2 years in jail. but it was a fault in basic safety. It must have been hard for him as he took his own life 3 yrs ago
My father (RIP) was an FBI agent for 30 yrs when they really mattered, and shot on the FBI's pistol competition team, he pounded firearm safety in me. I have a couple
of other stories I would love to tell, but one of them might make me a felon. Only 1 of the previous mentioned (and not spoken of)
discharges could I call AD.

palerider116 · Apr 12, 2013

Some NDs are sufficient punishment unto themselves. Case and point: guy was playing with his gun while showing off to his friends and put a .45 ACP round right through the palm of his hand. It looked like a crater on the moon. Burnt skin, torn flesh, exposed bone, and plenty of blood.

What can possibly be done to encourage safe handling of a firearm outside of this?

Sufficient enough punishment without a felony charge.

sparkman2 · Apr 12, 2013

2a4all said:
First, the question about "any building". What about indoor shooting ranges? Here's at least one instance where it's lawful.

18.2-287.4. Carrying loaded firearms in public areas prohibited; penalty.

It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a loaded (a) semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol that expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine that will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock or (b) shotgun with a magazine that will hold more than seven rounds of the longest ammunition for which it is chambered on or about his person on any public street, road, alley, sidewalk, public right-of-way, or in any public park or any other place of whatever nature that is open to the public in the Cities of Alexandria, Chesapeake, Fairfax, Falls Church, Newport News, Norfolk, Richmond, or Virginia Beach or in the Counties of Arlington, Fairfax, Henrico, Loudoun, or Prince William.

The provisions of this section shall not apply to law-enforcement officers, licensed security guards, military personnel in the performance of their lawful duties, or any person having a valid concealed handgun permit or to any person actually engaged in lawful hunting or lawful recreational shooting activities at an established shooting range or shooting contest. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

The exemptions set forth in § 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section.

Now the question of "one's own home" may prove a bit trickier. There's always the issue of self defense, which is lawful. Otherwise?

So if this is the law that is on the books, can a person who OC's have a round chambered and how does that apply to city parks? "Hold on bad guy, let me put my bullet in...dag gone it I dropped it. Hold on a sec..."

skidmark · Apr 12, 2013

sparkman2 said:
So if this is the law that is on the books, can a person who OC's have a round chambered and how does that apply to city parks? "Hold on bad guy, let me put my bullet in...dag gone it I dropped it. Hold on a sec..."

18.2-287.4 is about carrying a loaded handgun, loaded with a magazine that will accept more than 20 rounds of center-fire ammunition, in the Cities of Alexandria, Chesapeake, Fairfax, Falls Church, Newport News, Norfolk, Richmond, or Virginia Beach or in the Counties of Arlington, Fairfax, Henrico, Loudoun, or Prince William. Anywhere else there is no restriction.

Now, in answer to your specific question: It depends.

If the OCer has a CHP they are exempt from the restrictions in 18.20287-4. Without a CHP handgun magazines must be rated to hold 20 or less rounds if you are carrying "on or about his person on any public street, road, alley, sidewalk, public right-of-way, or in any public park or any other place of whatever nature that is open to the public" in those listed localities.

Having a round in the chamber does not change anything (except how fast you might bring your handgun into play). Without a CHP in the listed localities 20+1 is perfectly legal, while 21+1 is not. Outside the listed localities you may, if you desire and can find one, carry a magazine that is rated to hold any number of rounds of center-fire ammunition + 1 in the chamber. The practical but not legal limitation comes when you no longer can carry the handgun by yourself but need a crew to move it about.

stay safe.

2a4all · Apr 12, 2013

2a4all said:
First, the question about "any building". What about indoor shooting ranges? Here's at least one instance where it's lawful.

18.2-287.4. Carrying loaded firearms in public areas prohibited; penalty.

It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a loaded (a) semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol that expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine that will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock or (b) shotgun with a magazine that will hold more than seven rounds of the longest ammunition for which it is chambered on or about his person on any public street, road, alley, sidewalk, public right-of-way, or in any public park or any other place of whatever nature that is open to the public in the Cities of Alexandria, Chesapeake, Fairfax, Falls Church, Newport News, Norfolk, Richmond, or Virginia Beach or in the Counties of Arlington, Fairfax, Henrico, Loudoun, or Prince William.

The provisions of this section shall not apply to law-enforcement officers, licensed security guards, military personnel in the performance of their lawful duties, or any person having a valid concealed handgun permit or to any person actually engaged in lawful hunting or lawful recreational shooting activities at an established shooting range or shooting contest. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

The exemptions set forth in § 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section.

Now the question of "one's own home" may prove a bit trickier. There's always the issue of self defense, which is lawful. Otherwise?

sparkman2 said:
So if this is the law that is on the books, can a person who OC's have a round chambered and how does that apply to city parks? "Hold on bad guy, let me put my bullet in...dag gone it I dropped it. Hold on a sec..."

skidmark said:
18.2-287.4 is about carrying a loaded handgun, loaded with a magazine that will accept more than 20 rounds of center-fire ammunition, in the Cities of Alexandria, Chesapeake, Fairfax, Falls Church, Newport News, Norfolk, Richmond, or Virginia Beach or in the Counties of Arlington, Fairfax, Henrico, Loudoun, or Prince William. Anywhere else there is no restriction.

Now, in answer to your specific question: It depends.

If the OCer has a CHP they are exempt from the restrictions in 18.20287-4. Without a CHP handgun magazines must be rated to hold 20 or less rounds if you are carrying "on or about his person on any public street, road, alley, sidewalk, public right-of-way, or in any public park or any other place of whatever nature that is open to the public" in those listed localities.

Having a round in the chamber does not change anything (except how fast you might bring your handgun into play). Without a CHP in the listed localities 20+1 is perfectly legal, while 21+1 is not. Outside the listed localities you may, if you desire and can find one, carry a magazine that is rated to hold any number of rounds of center-fire ammunition + 1 in the chamber. The practical but not legal limitation comes when you no longer can carry the handgun by yourself but need a crew to move it about.

stay safe.

I quoted this statute because it mentions shooting ranges, which can be indoor, providing an example of discharging a firearm within an occupied building which is illegal. A bit weak, I admit, but better examples would probably found in municipal codes, since localities control the discharge of firearms.

Glockster · Apr 12, 2013

skidmark said:
The practical but not legal limitation comes when you no longer can carry the handgun by yourself but need a crew to move it about.

Now that made me laugh! "This is my weapon....and this is my weapon crew. Do not cross us." :monkey

marshaul · Apr 12, 2013

OK, what if you live in, say Fairfax County, where discharge is prohibited?

This would seem to mean that, if such an accidental discharge should occur in one's home in Fairfax County, it would be "unlawful" by virtue of the discharge ordinance, and a felony by virtue of § 18.2-279.

B. Reddy · Apr 12, 2013

Whew!

Citizen said:
Hard to say for sure. Could be an anti-gun cop or prosecutor. Could be the charges were later dropped or changed. Could be they found something that made it, shall we say, less than accidental.

I'm also concerned about this line from the story, emphasis mine: "In Albemarle County, it is legal to possess a firearm as long as the owner has a valid driver's license and undergoes a proper screening process."

Huh!?![/

Well, how about those apples?!? The prosecutor took all of 48 days to throw in the towel and "Nolle Prosequi" the case.
http://epwsgdp1.courts.state.va.us/gdcourts/criminalDetail.do?formAction=newSearch

That "reporter" is now writing art news at another publication, so we can probably breathe a little easier.

sharkey · Apr 13, 2013

I did not attack you personally.

I am not trolling, I am being genuine. If you can't control your rounds you're a danger to me.

Point taken on the car accident analogy. Life is dangerous.

I am far from an anti.

Scan my posts regarding machine gun ownership and ex felon carry.

ETA. Here's an example of what I mean by affirming what the anti's say.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/01/09/guns-are-dangerous-for-everyone.html

My point was I'd hate to see an anti use this thread as ammunition for their cause.

marshaul said:
You're confirming that you aren't what you claim. I have little time for trolling and disingenuousness.

First of all, they could become convicted felons whether the round "penetrated" somebody or not, at least if they are subject to the whims of the Charlottesville police.

Secondly, people make mistakes. It happens. Only an anti would make a comment like yours, in light of things like the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZdeAVOiQmU

Thirdly, how many drivers do you know who've had car accidents? It scares me to think that, at any point, any car could lose control and kill me.

Lets make them all felons, shall we?

That was a rather disgusting post. Why are you here?

Accidental discharge in own home = felony

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