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Thread: The "90% of citizens want UBC" lie

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    Regular Member minarchist's Avatar
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    Thumbs down The "90% of citizens want UBC" lie

    The poll questions never state that the proposal includes record keeping. Therefore, the use of this statistic is a dishonest tactic.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Which poll? Do you have a link?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by minarchist View Post
    The poll questions never state that the proposal includes record keeping. Therefore, the use of this statistic is a dishonest tactic.
    Well of course its dishonest--its an anti-gunner stat, ain't it?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member minarchist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Which poll? Do you have a link?
    This has been mentioned in the news a lot lately, and the numbers are usually in the neighborhood of 90%:

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...rp.-BQIgMRrXLg

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by minarchist View Post
    This has been mentioned in the news a lot lately, and the numbers are usually in the neighborhood of 90%:

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...rp.-BQIgMRrXLg
    Please, read the freaking article...really read the words, think about them, exercise those brains.

    Seriously, I really want to help you here. You MUST read between the lines. All people must think hard about what is being stated in these articles...they are written strategically. It's no coincidence the article was fashioned the way it was fashion. There's an intent.
    Here you go, from your link: "More than 9 in 10 Americans (91 percent) support the idea of universal background checks..."


    Hopefully this will help you understand what is being stated.
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 04-10-2013 at 06:40 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member minarchist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Please, read the freaking article...really read the words, think about them, exercise those brains.

    Seriously, I really want to help you here. You MUST read between the lines. All people must think hard about what is being stated in these articles...they are written strategically. It's no coincidence the article was fashioned the way it was fashion. There's an intent.
    Here you go, from your link: "More than 9 in 10 Americans (91 percent) support the idea of universal background checks..."


    Hopefully this will help you understand what is being stated.
    I know what is being stated. The problem is that progressive scum take ""More than 9 in 10 Americans (91 percent) support the idea of universal background check" and portray that as approximately 90% of citizens supporting the actual details being proposed (e.g., universal registration). The problem is not with me, but rather with your ilk.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by minarchist View Post
    I know what is being stated. The problem is that progressive scum take ""More than 9 in 10 Americans (91 percent) support the idea of universal background check" and portray that as approximately 90% of citizens supporting the actual details being proposed (e.g., universal registration). The problem is not with me, but rather with your ilk.
    I don't mean to call you out here, but you didn't know, until I pointed it out to you.

    It's not their fault that you were led to believe what you believe; it's your responsibility, ALONE, to understand what you are reading.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  8. #8
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Polls are regularly worded so that they can be spun to show the results that the pollsters want. We try to shine a bright light on those that are misleading.

    What we do not do here is attack/insult one another. We stick to discussing the facts.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 04-10-2013 at 07:26 PM.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Polls are regularly worded so that they can be spun to show the results that the pollsters want. We try to shine a bright light on those that ate misleading.

    What we do not do here is attack/insult one another. We stick to discussing the facts.
    I agree. Polls aren't being disputed here, in this thread, though. That's not what this thread was birthed from.

    Two original lines:


    The "90% of citizens want UBC" lie

    The author we were linked to was not stating 90% of citizens want UBC. The poll wasn't stating it either.


    The poll questions never state that the proposal includes record keeping.

    It likely didn't state that because the proposal does not include record keeping...it's illegal under Federal Law; please, if I'm wrong about this, link me up. Also, if the Bill does not include retaining that it's illegal, please, link me up.



    As for personal attacks, I sit through threads that make broad statements about Progressives, Liberals, etc. If I can handle the critique, in my delicate state, then so can others.

    I'm not here to start an argument. What I would like though, is this thread to not perpetuate lies.
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 04-10-2013 at 07:32 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  10. #10
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Poll questions, and percentage of responses:

    21. Do you support or oppose - stricter gun control laws in the United States?
    Tot Rep Dem Ind Men Wom Wht Blk Hsp Support 53% 29% 78% 52% 45% 61% 48% 78% 65% Oppose 42 67 19 44 51 35 47 19 30 DK/NA 4 4 3 5 4 5 4 3 5 REGION................... DENSITY............ HAVE KIDS.. NEast MWest South West Urban Suburb Rural <18InPubSch Support 58% 51% 51% 55% 59% 56% 42% 51% 52% Oppose 37 46 44 41 37 39 55 43 42 DK/NA 5 3 5 4 4 5 3 6 6 COLLEGE DEG ANNUAL HSHOLD INC AGE IN YRS....... Gun Yes No <50K 50-100 >100K 18-34 35-54 55+ HsHld Support 60% 50% 54% 50% 60% 49% 53% 57% 35% Oppose 36 45 42 46 36 48 43 38 61 DK/NA 4 4 4 4 3 3 4 5 3
    TREND: Do you support or oppose stricter gun control laws in the United States?
    Apr 04 Mar 07 Feb 07 Jul 17 2013 2013 2013 2008 Support 53 51 52 54 Oppose 42 42 43 40 DK/NA 4 7 5 5
    22. Do you support or oppose - a nationwide ban on the sale of assault weapons?
    Tot Rep Dem Ind Men Wom Wht Blk Hsp Support 59% 41% 79% 56% 47% 70% 56% 78% 61% Oppose 36 55 15 41 50 24 40 17 29 DK/NA 4 4 6 3 2 6 3 5 10 REGION................... DENSITY............ HAVE KIDS.. NEast MWest South West Urban Suburb Rural <18InPubSch Support 64% 56% 60% 58% 62% 63% 52% 57% 54% Oppose 31 42 36 36 34 32 44 37 39 DK/NA 5 2 4 7 4 5 4 6 7 COLLEGE DEG ANNUAL HSHOLD INC AGE IN YRS....... Gun Yes No <50K 50-100 >100K 18-34 35-54 55+ HsHld Support 65% 57% 62% 55% 61% 56% 57% 64% 46% Oppose 32 38 34 40 37 38 40 32 50 DK/NA 3 5 4 4 2 5 3 4 4
    TREND: Do you support or oppose a nationwide ban on the sale of assault weapons?
    Apr 04 Mar 07 Feb 07 2013 2013 2013 Support 59 54 56 Oppose 36 41 39 DK/NA 4 6 5
    23. Do you support or oppose - a nationwide ban on the sale of high-capacity ammunition magazines that hold more than 10 bullets?
    Tot Rep Dem Ind Men Wom Wht Blk Hsp Support 58% 40% 78% 55% 48% 67% 56% 73% 55% Oppose 38 55 18 42 48 28 39 24 38 DK/NA 4 5 4 3 3 5 4 3 7 REGION................... DENSITY............ HAVE KIDS.. NEast MWest South West Urban Suburb Rural <18InPubSch Support 60% 55% 59% 58% 61% 62% 49% 57% 57% Oppose 34 40 38 38 35 33 47 39 40 DK/NA 6 5 3 4 4 5 4 4 3 COLLEGE DEG ANNUAL HSHOLD INC AGE IN YRS....... Gun Yes No <50K 50-100 >100K 18-34 35-54 55+ HsHld Support 66% 54% 59% 58% 62% 52% 58% 62% 46% Oppose 31 41 37 39 35 46 37 33 51 DK/NA 3 5 4 3 3 2 4 5 3
    TREND: Do you support or oppose a nationwide ban on the sale of high-capacity ammunition magazines that hold more than 10 bullets?
    Apr 04 Mar 07 Feb 07 2013 2013 2013 Support 58 54 56 Oppose 38 42 40 DK/NA 4 5 4
    24. Do you support or oppose - requiring background checks for all gun buyers?
    Tot Rep Dem Ind Men Wom Wht Blk Hsp Support 91% 88% 96% 90% 88% 94% 91% 94% 90% Oppose 8 10 4 9 12 5 8 5 5 DK/NA 1 2 - 1 1 2 1 1 5 REGION................... DENSITY............ HAVE KIDS.. NEast MWest South West Urban Suburb Rural <18InPubSch Support 92% 91% 90% 91% 92% 93% 88% 91% 89% Oppose 7 8 8 8 7 6 11 8 10 DK/NA 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 COLLEGE DEG ANNUAL HSHOLD INC AGE IN YRS....... Gun Yes No <50K 50-100 >100K 18-34 35-54 55+ HsHld Support 92% 91% 92% 90% 91% 95% 92% 88% 88% Oppose 7 8 7 10 8 5 8 9 11 DK/NA 1 1 1 - 1 - - 2 1
    TREND: Do you support or oppose requiring background checks for all gun buyers?
    Apr 04 Mar 07 Feb 07 2013 2013 2013 Support 91 88 92 Oppose 8 10 7 DK/NA 1 2 1
    25. Do you believe that if there are background checks for all gun purchases the government will or will not use that information in the future to confiscate legally-owned guns?
    Tot Rep Dem Ind Men Wom Wht Blk Hsp Confiscate 48% 61% 32% 51% 52% 45% 47% 42% 55% Will not 38 25 54 36 37 38 39 43 28 DK/NA 14 15 14 13 11 17 14 15 17 REGION................... DENSITY............ HAVE KIDS.. NEast MWest South West Urban Suburb Rural <18InPubSch Confiscate 47% 46% 52% 44% 45% 46% 55% 49% 44% Will not 38 37 37 40 41 40 31 40 42 DK/NA 14 17 11 16 14 14 14 12 14 COLLEGE DEG ANNUAL HSHOLD INC AGE IN YRS....... Gun Yes No <50K 50-100 >100K 18-34 35-54 55+ HsHld Confiscate 36% 53% 52% 48% 39% 58% 47% 43% 53% Will not 52 31 34 39 52 33 40 41 34 DK/NA 11 15 14 13 9 9 13 16 13 http://www.quinnipiac.edu/institutes...ReleaseID=1877

    Refer to question #24: Do you support or oppose - requiring background checks for all gun buyers?

    Apparently the individuals who took part in this particular poll, at 91%, support requirements for background checks of all gun buyers.


    There were 1,711 registered voters questioned. Apparently they did this poll previously, on three different occasions. It appears that question #24 has been hovering around 90% the past six years.
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 04-10-2013 at 07:42 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Easier to read format found here:

    http://www.quinnipiac.edu/institutes...ReleaseID=1877

    Ooops, sorry see that the link has already been shown.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 04-10-2013 at 07:57 PM. Reason: added
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    The voters must have been chosen selectively, I don't personally know of a single person who supports universal background checks, (maybe it's because the people I socialize with know what it means to have universal background checks?) so I can't believe that 9 out of every 10 Americans are for it. Granted that 8 of those 9 are probably ignorant to what it even means. Anyway a poll of less than 2000 is hardly a representation of America.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Easier to read format found here:

    http://www.quinnipiac.edu/institutes...ReleaseID=1877

    Ooops, sorry see that the link has already been shown.
    LOL, my copy and paste didn't work out well.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADobbs1989 View Post
    The voters must have been chosen selectively, I don't personally know of a single person who supports universal background checks, (maybe it's because the people I socialize with know what it means to have universal background checks?) so I can't believe that 9 out of every 10 Americans are for it. Granted that 8 of those 9 are probably ignorant to what it even means. Anyway a poll of less than 2000 is hardly a representation of America.
    True enough - they do not show/demonstrate a selection from all demographic areas/peoples.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADobbs1989 View Post
    The voters must have been chosen selectively, I don't personally know of a single person who supports universal background checks, (maybe it's because the people I socialize with know what it means to have universal background checks?) so I can't believe that 9 out of every 10 Americans are for it. Granted that 8 of those 9 are probably ignorant to what it even means. Anyway a poll of less than 2000 is hardly a representation of America.
    I would like to know what it means to have Universal Background Checks, please. Can you explain to me what it would cover?


    Agreed, the sample is small. The calls appear to have been random. Unless I missed something in their description of the process.
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 04-10-2013 at 08:03 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    True enough - they do not show/demonstrate a selection from all demographic areas/peoples.
    It does, refer to the bottom, and hit the Demographic Summary link. Sorry, it doesn't cover areas, but it does cover: People, Education, and Race...yes, it does cover areas:


    Damn it! I cant keep the format. Just hit the link towards the bottom of the poll.
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 04-10-2013 at 08:06 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    I would like to know what it means to have Universal Background Checks, please. Can you explain to me what it would cover?
    --snipped--
    See links below:

    See this post over on the News and Politics forum for a summary of the Manchin-Toomey Amendment

    The Toomey-Manchin Proposal Will Allow Doctors to Block Your Right to Guns
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    I would like to know what it means to have Universal Background Checks, please. Can you explain to me what it would cover?


    Agreed, the sample is small. The calls appear to have been random. Unless I missed something in their description of the process.
    No one is required to tell the truth about how they got the information either, I'm not saying it's false, but I never take opinion polls as complete truths.

    In a general sense, the part about UBC's that most are ignorant to is the fact that you can't legally pass down your firearms to your children, or other family members without having a background check done. Frankly this is none of the governments business. I'm against background checks anyway as I don't think any of it is the governments business. UBC's are also completely unenforceable unless a database exists that will link you to all the weapons you should own, which is 100% gun registration (which is illegal anyway). So the only two outcomes of UBC's is either having a system that is completely unenforceable, or you break the law to create a database of gun owners. Since one is illegal and the other is useless, what's the point of having them?

  19. #19
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADobbs1989 View Post
    No one is required to tell the truth about how they got the information either, I'm not saying it's false, but I never take opinion polls as complete truths.

    In a general sense, the part about UBC's that most are ignorant to is the fact that you can't legally pass down your firearms to your children, or other family members without having a background check done. Frankly this is none of the governments business. I'm against background checks anyway as I don't think any of it is the governments business. UBC's are also completely unenforceable unless a database exists that will link you to all the weapons you should own, which is 100% gun registration (which is illegal anyway). So the only two outcomes of UBC's is either having a system that is completely unenforceable, or you break the law to create a database of gun owners. Since one is illegal and the other is useless, what's the point of having them?
    You are wrong, period, regarding passing firearms down. Read section 124 (I believe) of the Bill, under Exclusions.


    There will be no gun database created for all gun owners.

    Seriously, are some of you screwing with me?
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    You are wrong, period, regarding passing firearms down. Read section 124 (I believe) of the Bill, under Exclusions.


    There will be no gun database created for all gun owners.

    Seriously, are some of you screwing with me?
    If there are exceptions then it's not technically UNIVERSAL, which means ALL. The current thing being proposed extends background checks to online sales and gun shows, but exempts family/friends/and other private sales, ergo it's not technically universal. The online sales part is still 100% unenforceable, and removing the universal part a gun registry wouldn't work as there would still be many legal ways to transfer firearms without a background check. You can decide if you would like to discuss universal background checks, or the proposed bill that isn't universal.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADobbs1989 View Post
    If there are exceptions then it's not technically UNIVERSAL, which means ALL. The current thing being proposed extends background checks to online sales and gun shows, but exempts family/friends/and other private sales, ergo it's not technically universal. The online sales part is still 100% unenforceable, and removing the universal part a gun registry wouldn't work as there would still be many legal ways to transfer firearms without a background check. You can decide if you would like to discuss universal background checks, or the proposed bill that isn't universal.
    I can parse words better than most. Let's not parse words here.

    It can be a UBC and have exemptions. It's understandable you're looking for an out now.

    UBC's under discussion are about the UBC bill. Let's not act as if it isn't.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    I can parse words better than most. Let's not parse words here.

    It can be a UBC and have exemptions. It's understandable you're looking for an out now.

    UBC's under discussion are about the UBC bill. Let's not act as if it isn't.
    I'm not looking for an out, I deal with the truthful wording of things. If it has exceptions, it's NOT universal. It's simply extending the current requirements for background checks. If you take out the milky way galaxy and parade the rest as the entire universe your wrong. So if you take out many of the times one would have to get a background check and parade it as universal your wrong. Once again, you can decide if we are going to talk about UBC, or the proposed bill that extends background checks.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADobbs1989 View Post
    I'm not looking for an out, I deal with the truthful wording of things. If it has exceptions, it's NOT universal. It's simply extending the current requirements for background checks. If you take out the milky way galaxy and parade the rest as the entire universe your wrong. So if you take out many of the times one would have to get a background check and parade it as universal your wrong. Once again, you can decide if we are going to talk about UBC, or the proposed bill that extends background checks.
    I am more than happy to discuss the current Bill, and it's UBC system.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    I am more than happy to discuss the current Bill, and it's UBC system.
    Guess there is nothing to talk about since it's not a universal system. If this is UBC..then what exactly would you call a system where every transfer required a check? The Multiverseal Background Check?
    Last edited by ADobbs1989; 04-10-2013 at 08:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADobbs1989 View Post
    Guess there is nothing to talk about since it's not a universal system. If this is UBC..then what exactly would you call a system where every transfer required a check? The Multiverseal Background Check?
    Don't bother. Talking to her is like talking to a brick wall. Look at her second post in which she says she can read minds... And you want to try talking to her? You will get nowhere, stop while you are ahead (which you are, by a heck of a lot).

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