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A de facto death sentence for the "mentally ill" and ex-cons is barbaric

ADobbs1989

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2012
Messages
465
Location
Alabama
Where's the dotted line...I'm ready to sign it!

There will probably never be one because something of this nature makes a little too much sense for politicians to adopt it. Republican or Democrat. And it would also call for more funding for mental healthcare, which is apparently a bad idea for some reason.
 

JoeSparky

Centurion
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,621
Location
Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
Anyone who is not detained should not be restricted.

Personally, IF they have not been stripped of their civil and constitutionally protected rights IN A COURT PROCEEDING in which due process was afforded the individual AND they are not incarcerated, on probation or parole, or housed in an IN-PATIENT mental facility then they should NOT BE RESTRICTED by the Government.
 

georg jetson

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
2,416
Location
Slidell, Louisiana
Personally, IF they have not been stripped of their civil and constitutionally protected rights IN A COURT PROCEEDING in which due process was afforded the individual AND they are not incarcerated, on probation or parole, or housed in an IN-PATIENT mental facility then they should NOT BE RESTRICTED by the Government.

Here's the problem I have with the "on probation or parole" part.

Why shorten the incarceration time if they can't resume full unalienable rights?

You do realize that the issue of restricting rights to some felons(not in the actual custody of the state) provides the ammunition to invade everyone's privacy to make sure YOU are not restricted.

Minarchist - another excellent thread.
 
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JoeSparky

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Location
Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
Here's the problem I have with the "on probation or parole" part.

Why shorten the incarceration time if they can't resume full unalienable rights?

You do realize that the issue of restricting rights to some felons(not in the actual custody of the state) provides the ammunition to invade everyone's privacy to make sure YOU are not restricted.

Minarchist - another excellent thread.

Disagree with your last allegation.

Some have "gotten away" with making one prove they are legal so often they have forgotten that the requirement is on them to prove that I broke the law, not for me to prove that I haven't!
I should not have to prove to the "Occifer" that I am NOT "restricted" but he should have to have RAS as a minimum that I am a restricted person.
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
I'm reading two basic "arguments" - perhaps "positions" would be a better word.

1 - anything but the most effective and efficient is not effective or efficient at all. A knife may not be as effective as a firearm, but you would probably be surprised to find out is is much more efficient. Folks are less afraid of getting shot than they are afraid of getting cut. And unless you can keep every mugger/robber/rapist/Member of Congress* more than 21 feet away at all times, you are probably not going to be able to get to your firearm in time to "equalize" the contest. Action beats reaction, and all that. So having the most effective and most efficient still will not save your pretty pink hide.

2 - if someone is so dangerous that they cannot be trusted/allowed to have a firearm they should remain locked up. If they are "rehabilitated" their RKBA should be restored. I'm going to start on the MH side of the fence by discussing the schizo-affective. If you can convince them/force them to take meds they usually stop being delusional. But have you ever wondered why they do not want to keep taking those meds (besides the really horrid side effects)? Putting it in very basic terms, and skipping all the technical stuff - their delusion beats the heck out of their reality. So you are going to have to figure out a way to ensure that they are continuing to take their meds -- while dealing with the legal fact that they have a right to stop taking them whenever they want to. And the best way to determine they are still taking their meds is to do blood tersts, not wait till the residual stiuff has worn off and they go full-bore crazy again. Who's going to do those tests and who's going to pay for them to be done?

Now, for the plain criminal types, how are you going to "rehabilitate" them? (Actually, "habilitate" is the more appropriate term.) Anybody besides me read/reread Samenow & Yokelson's The Criminal Personality on anything approaching a regular basis? Folks, if you did not know, the truth is they think differently than we do, which pretty much explains why they act differently. There are ways to alter - not completely rewire - their thinking processes. In the 25+ years I dealt professionally with the inmate population I don't think I met more than 50 people who knew how to "treat" criminals to bring about habilitation, and I don't think I met more than a few hundred who understood the basic premises. Folks who came the closest were usually in the drug/alcohol treatment field and a lot of them were flying by the seat of their pants using personal experience of how they "got clean".

The criminal population is very much like the MH population - they are not acting out their dangerousness to self or others on a constant basis. But unless you can guarantee the ability to prevent an outbreak of dangerous behavior you are stuck with a risk. Our society is risk-aversive.

stay safe.


* - Member of Congress was not included to insult the other categories, but merely to round out the list.
 

georg jetson

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
2,416
Location
Slidell, Louisiana
Disagree with your last allegation.

Some have "gotten away" with making one prove they are legal so often they have forgotten that the requirement is on them to prove that I broke the law, not for me to prove that I haven't!
I should not have to prove to the "Occifer" that I am NOT "restricted" but he should have to have RAS as a minimum that I am a restricted person.

It is their ammunition none the less.

I think we both agree that a background check for a LAC is an invasion of privacy.
 

nonameisgood

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
1,008
Location
Big D
Anyone who is not detained should not be restricted.

So instead of allowing restrictions like those against gun ownership for the mentally ill and felons living in public, you prefer full restriction of liberty and the pursuit of happiness by incarceration or institutionalization at the expense of taxpayers? So you know about the violence inside prisons, yet you don't allow inmates to protect themselves against violence, including coerced and forced sex? Interesting.
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
<snip>She ended up in a gun shop a month later, and NIX nixed her. Six months later she committed suicide by other means, successfully. <snip>
Please accept my condolences.

Criminals will always find a way to get a gun if they want a gun, no law will prevent that.....

Crazy folks have rights too.

Society must react to criminal acts. Society must not waste time trying to figure out who the next criminal is. Thus, society must not infringe upon a citizen's liberty just in case......
 

georg jetson

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
2,416
Location
Slidell, Louisiana
So instead of allowing restrictions like those against gun ownership for the mentally ill and felons living in public, you prefer full restriction of liberty and the pursuit of happiness by incarceration or institutionalization at the expense of taxpayers? So you know about the violence inside prisons, yet you don't allow inmates to protect themselves against violence, including coerced and forced sex? Interesting.

How much it costs to incarcerate is not relevant. Incarceration is expensive because we have too many laws and that equates to too many people behind bars.

As to "allowing restrictions like those against gun ownership", I will point out that restricting rights outside of state custody is "cruel and unusual". Further, answer the question "if they can't be allowed to have a firearm, then why are we releasing from custody?" If they desire, they WILL get a firearm.

Allowing any means to facilitate escape from state custody would be foolish and render state custody unenforceable. An inmate may defend themselves, but they're choices of how to do so are limited. Because they are in the custody of the state, inmate safety is the state's responsibility.
 

minarchist

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2013
Messages
473
Location
Fredericksburg, VA
So instead of allowing restrictions like those against gun ownership for the mentally ill and felons living in public, you prefer full restriction of liberty and the pursuit of happiness by incarceration or institutionalization at the expense of taxpayers? So you know about the violence inside prisons, yet you don't allow inmates to protect themselves against violence, including coerced and forced sex? Interesting.

A prison can be designed to allow each inmate complete protection from every other inmate.
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
A prison can be designed to allow each inmate complete protection from every other inmate.

I'll have to dig but I believe statistics of crime are the same for in prison as out of prison. Though the high security prisons have much higer violence then the low or med security prisons.

When we lived in the Keys Big Pine Prison did not even lock the gate, even of a night. Though that has been 20 years ago it could have changed.
 

Beretta92FSLady

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2009
Messages
5,264
Location
In My Coffee
Please accept my condolences.

Criminals will always find a way to get a gun if they want a gun, no law will prevent that.....

Crazy folks have rights too.

Society must react to criminal acts. Society must not waste time trying to figure out who the next criminal is. Thus, society must not infringe upon a citizen's liberty just in case......

I have zero issue with the Government being proactive in areas that citizens like yourself prefer to be reactive to. It's called Mitigation.
 
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