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Thread: Culpeper... again!?

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Culpeper... again!?

    I'm starting to think it might not be a bad idea to go AROUND Culpeper from now on... Dan's going to have to open a satellite office.

    TFred

    Culpeper deputies involved in fatal shooting

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Too little information to know what to think. What do you know that we do not that makes you think a deputy is going to be charged?

    And if LEOs shooting/killing someone is to be the criteria for Dan opening a satellite office, he's going to need to put one in just about every locality. Somehow I think he would consider volume/frequency before commiting to additional rent.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Someone in the bureaucracy has learned from past experience......don't talk to the press.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    I doubt the deputy will be charged. The investigation will probably determine that a furtive movement by the suspect created an exigent situation that resulted in the totality of circumstances during which the officer was in fear for his life and exercised his obligatory duty to stop the threat and protect the public.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blk97F150 View Post
    I doubt the deputy will be charged. The investigation will probably determine that a furtive movement by the suspect created an exigent situation that resulted in the totality of circumstances during which the officer was in fear for his life and exercised his obligatory duty to stop the threat and protect the public.
    The problem with posting like that is that it implies negatively that we/you have found that is frequently the case or that we support castigation of LEOs. Neither is factual. Your reply could reflect exactly what happened AND they other party may have been armed. Way too many details not known - I will wait. Trust that other will do likewise.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    The problem with posting like that is that it implies negatively that we/you have found that is frequently the case or that we support castigation of LEOs. Neither is factual. Your reply could reflect exactly what happened AND they other party may have been armed. Way too many details not known - I will wait. Trust that other will do likewise.
    Grape, sometimes you read way too much into things... and see things in a post, that were not written.

    Really.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    The problem with posting like that is that it implies negatively that we/you have found that is frequently the case or that we support castigation of LEOs. Neither is factual. Your reply could reflect exactly what happened AND they other party may have been armed. Way too many details not known - I will wait. Trust that other will do likewise.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blk97F150 View Post
    Grape, sometimes you read way too much into things... and see things in a post, that were not written.

    Really.
    You may be right. There have been so many instances of rushing to judgement and attacking LEOs generally that I am attuned/programed to a heightened awareness. Please forgive any personal slight; I could have worded that better.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blk97F150 View Post
    Grape, sometimes you read way too much into things... and see things in a post, that were not written.

    Really.
    That's because he has to deal with that way too often. It's hard to remember which members like yourself, don't have a personal size tar bucket..and which one's do.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    The man did have a gun, but still details are not clear.

    http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/st...9bb30f31a.html
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    You may be right. There have been so many instances of rushing to judgement and attacking LEOs generally that I am attuned/programed to a heightened awareness. Please forgive any personal slight; I could have worded that better.
    No apology necessary... (although thank you for the consideration). You have a very difficult role here, and do a great job. I sure don't envy being a Mod (which may be why the other mods don't come out of the closet! lol)

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    Related article.

    http://wtop.com/120/3283544/Virginia...s-kill-suspect

    <<Snip>
    State police say the deputies shot 59-year-old Harold Lee Daniels on Thursday night after the Rapidan man pointed a gun at the deputies. The deputies were attempting to arrest Daniels after his vehicle was clocked going more than 100 mph and he fled in his vehicle after a deputy conducting the speed checks attempted to stop him.

    State police say that deputy and a second deputy later traced the vehicle and Daniels to a residence in Rapidan. Investigators said Daniels pointed a gun at the deputies as they attempted to apprehend him. He died at the scene.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    That's because he has to deal with that way too often. It's hard to remember which members like yourself, don't have a personal size tar bucket..and which one's do.
    Oh, I have one.... I just wasn't using it... yet.



    If the man did indeed point a firearm at a deputy.... not a very smart move. Like others have said, I'm sure more info (and more accurate info) will be released soon.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blk97F150 View Post
    Oh, I have one.... I just wasn't using it... yet.


    Hmmmm...guess you gave a CTP then

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Turning into another bizarre story.

    TFred

    Culpeper sheriff backs his deputies

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Well,,,

    It is a sad and confusing story.
    It is a shame that none of the news stories talk about finding his gun and putting it into evidence!

    Off topic, Im usally quite awake and thoughtful at 11PM when this thread started,
    Im also ready to post reasonably at 1AM, when I made the first reply to this thread.
    I do not remember reading the thread then, nor posting some personal attack,
    in reponse to a report of a shooting and the linked new artical.
    Really, there is nothing that I should/could have taken any offense too!
    Ive read it today, saw that I had been deleted and for the life of me, have no recolection of what
    I may have wrote, nor what kind of thing I wrote, Nor why I would attack Tfred.
    Soooo Im saying I am sorry! I wish Grapeshot would PM me, and tell me, what the heck did I write!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  16. #16
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    It is a sad and confusing story.
    It is a shame that none of the news stories talk about finding his gun and putting it into evidence!

    Off topic, Im usally quite awake and thoughtful at 11PM when this thread started,
    Im also ready to post reasonably at 1AM, when I made the first reply to this thread.
    I do not remember reading the thread then, nor posting some personal attack,
    in reponse to a report of a shooting and the linked new artical.
    Really, there is nothing that I should/could have taken any offense too!
    Ive read it today, saw that I had been deleted and for the life of me, have no recolection of what
    I may have wrote, nor what kind of thing I wrote, Nor why I would attack Tfred.
    Soooo Im saying I am sorry! I wish Grapeshot would PM me, and tell me, what the heck did I write!
    PM sent.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  17. #17
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Wowwie!! Really, Wowwie!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    PM sent.
    I thank you for the PM.
    The post I made somewhow seems familiar....
    I dont know where it was supposed to go, but it didnt beong in that thread.
    Sooo, again I am soooo sorry, It was a mistake.
    I Am glad you used your powers to delete it before everyone got to read it, and wonder, if I had indede, lost what little mind I have left.

    It seems that their was another really stupid trolling thread I must have seen when I made that post.
    I think in that thread, in that context, my post may have stood your scrutiny.
    I sometime see posts from others, where they edit to say,,, oops posted in the wrong thread,
    so I guess it does happen, but its a Ist for me, Still dont know how though...

    I do look forward to more, hard htting news about this unfortunate event.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  18. #18
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    TFred....I have a full plate right now so I haven't followed this. I just read the news accounts which are sketchy as usual, but I haven't seen anything real controversial yet.

    Deputies running radar, man speeds, Deputies trace car (How, I don't know) to his house, man points gun at Deputy who shoots him.

    What am I missing?

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    TFred....I have a full plate right now so I haven't followed this. I just read the news accounts which are sketchy as usual, but I haven't seen anything real controversial yet.

    Deputies running radar, man speeds, Deputies trace car (How, I don't know) to his house, man points gun at Deputy who shoots him.

    What am I missing?
    Possibly it was the wrong guy and the thing in his hand was not a firearm? Note the VASP are investigating. Do they normally do that in clear-cut cases? IDK.

    Guy seen barefoot walking dog during the 'manhunt'. Car in the garage, possibly not recently driven?

  20. #20
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    TFred....I have a full plate right now so I haven't followed this. I just read the news accounts which are sketchy as usual, but I haven't seen anything real controversial yet.

    Deputies running radar, man speeds, Deputies trace car (How, I don't know) to his house, man points gun at Deputy who shoots him.

    What am I missing?
    Nothing more than it was in Culpeper, and although I know it happens, I really can't recall any other LE shootings in my local area for quite some time. Just the situation where one case in the news makes the next one more noticeable. Kind of like when you buy a green Honda, suddenly the road is full of green Hondas, I suppose.

    Of course I will not form an opinion until later, if at all, but a careful observer can't help but notice that the story is developing in such a manner that precludes any corroboration to the officers' version of the events, since the only other witness to the suspects aggressive action is the deceased himself. Convenient, at least.

    I have no idea what actually happened, but if these two deputies busted in the guy's house, cussed him out for embarrassing them in front of their colleagues, shot him, left a gun in his hand, how would we ever know the difference? NOT SAYING THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED... but just asking, how would we ever know? It's all about what you can prove in a court of law, and I'm guessing in this case, that isn't going to be very much at all.

    TFred

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    It is a sad and confusing story.
    It is a shame that none of the news stories talk about finding his gun and putting it into evidence!

    Off topic, Im usally quite awake and thoughtful at 11PM when this thread started,
    Im also ready to post reasonably at 1AM, when I made the first reply to this thread.
    I do not remember reading the thread then, nor posting some personal attack,
    in reponse to a report of a shooting and the linked new artical.
    Really, there is nothing that I should/could have taken any offense too!
    Ive read it today, saw that I had been deleted and for the life of me, have no recolection of what
    I may have wrote, nor what kind of thing I wrote, Nor why I would attack Tfred.
    Soooo Im saying I am sorry! I wish Grapeshot would PM me, and tell me, what the heck did I write!
    Just FYI to all concerned, this is news to me, I didn't see any out-of-order posts last night, nor did they even show up in my e-mail feed!

    TFred

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    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
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    No idea what happened or why in this case, myself, but being somewhat cynical, I would repeat the following suggestion: when in the company of law enforcement, do not touch a firearm; don't think about it, don't talk about it, don't gesture towards it, don't make any reference to it. Think of it this way: A gun in your hand, even where some "authority" has ordered you to produce it, is permission for the "authority" to kill you. Most cops are really ok, but one of them out there is a psychotic whacko nut-job, and you don't know which one it is.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Of course I will not form an opinion until later, if at all, but a careful observer can't help but notice that the story is developing in such a manner that precludes any corroboration to the officers' version of the events, since the only other witness to the suspects aggressive action is the deceased himself. Convenient, at least.
    The last time the Culpeper police shot a person I argued that it's high time we mandate police record everything they do in at the very least duplicate, most especially when they are initiating a premeditated action (from serving a warrant to deciding to set up a speed trap), with noncompliance penalties ranging from excluding evidence in trial against their suspect, to a presumption of guilt against officers who knowingly go into a situation, don't record, and then shoot somebody. Also I'd be fine with criminal penalties for noncompliance.

    I know the police apologists will act as though that's some prohibitively restrictive burden, but I'd go so far as to say that that right there is a great litmus test for police apologia. In fact, it's not a burden at all. Police already have plenty of recording equipment – dash cams, lapel cams, helmet cams, you name it – which they have no problem using when it suits them. All I'm saying is it's high time we penalize them when they neglect to do so for suspicious reasons, or conveniently "lose" footage or experience "equipment malfunctions".
    Last edited by marshaul; 04-13-2013 at 02:25 PM.

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    Regular Member speed41ae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    No idea what happened or why in this case, myself, but being somewhat cynical, I would repeat the following suggestion: when in the company of law enforcement, do not touch a firearm; don't think about it, don't talk about it, don't gesture towards it, don't make any reference to it. Think of it this way: A gun in your hand, even where some "authority" has ordered you to produce it, is permission for the "authority" to kill you. Most cops are really ok, but one of them out there is a psychotic whacko nut-job, and you don't know which one it is.
    I would like to add that just because the LEO that told you that it is OK for you to hand him your firearm knows that it is OK. It does not mean that his partner that did not hear him or some other LEO that just showed up knows that it is OK.

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    The last time the Culpeper police shot a person I argued that it's high time we mandate police record everything they do in at the very least duplicate,...

    ...the police apologists will act as though that's some prohibitively restrictive burden...
    Has any cop argued that his daily body armor, bat belt (Taser, cuffs, sidearm, 50+ rounds of ammo, spray, radio, flashlight, etc), and "patrol carbine" are prohibitively restrictive burdens? After all, most of these items are heavy and expensive, and most are rarely needed.

    Digital recording equipment is dirt cheap and lightweight in comparison, and can be useful every single day in the performance of their duties.

    The truth is that it would be far more useful to the interests of the State and the People than to the actual officer.
    Last edited by MAC702; 04-15-2013 at 03:56 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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