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Thread: Positive LEO Experience at Sheetz Roanoke after drawing weapon, And a question.

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    Positive LEO Experience at Sheetz Roanoke after drawing weapon, And a question.

    I often OC or Conceal (I do have a CHP) on my person when it is just me, as many of my friends, do support guns but do not agree with carrying them every where. But I always keep a 9mm in my car, in a holster in my door panel.
    After taking my terminally ill mother to ride in a New Camaro at Berglund (It was on her bucket list and those guys really helped me out) we were coming down Williamson, and I notice this guy (About 6 4, 250-300lbs) , just pounding as hard as he could inside on a passenger side of the car, thru the window, onto what looked like a child and a woman in the driver seat, just screaming for help. I pulled in real quick, jumped out of my car, assessed the scene, and the guy looked like he was stabbing inside the car, and this is when I noticed how big he was. So I double backed to my car real quick, grabbed the 9mm, and with safety on (I have always been taught, unless your about to pull the trigger, the safety stays on) I instructed the gun to get off of him, get on his knees, and face on the pavement. He semi-Complied with the knees and pavement, but end result, it stopped the fight, then fled. when I put my weapon in my waistband.
    Turns out just a fight between to men, but it looked alot worse.
    Being the EMT that I am, I'm worried about the guy because he got atleast 6 hits in before I could end the situation.
    The guy decides to call the police, so we pull into parking spaces, I clear my weapon, and lock it back, police gets on scene, at first they were all like hands in the air, get on the ground don't effin move etc etc. So they get the weapon, Grab my ID, CHP etc, get the guy's story, and then they find out I just broke it up, and told me "get over here, good job man" and they gave my weapon back to me before the reports were even taking, after calling and making sure it was a legal fire arm. Took Reports, and good from there, we left.

    My Question: I am 120lbs, 5 7, the offender was atleast 250lbs, 6 4, and it looked like he was stabbing a child in the car, did I do the right thing by drawing a weapon?
    Question 2: What if I knew it was a simple physical fight, Would I still be justified in drawing a weapon to break it up.

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    I think you did fine, but why did they check your weapon for "legalness" if you weren't suspected of doing anything wrong?

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    You drew down on someone for pounding on a car window?

    Don't have the attitude that you're a police officer.
    Last edited by Maverick9; 04-12-2013 at 04:17 PM.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    I think it was a judgement call, I wasn't there and it isn't Monday morning.

    Weapon aside, you did just fine by getting involved. Normally I say to mind your own business but in that case there was no way to tell what was happening.

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    You observed a violent confrontation. You stopped a criminal act and possibly saved a life. Thank God we will never know what the outcome could been. Job Well Done.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    I would be very concerned that they ran your serial number. You may want to check into that one.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    You drew down on someone for pounding on a car window?

    Don't have the attitude that you're a police officer.
    Did you read the post?

    "pounding as hard as he could inside on a passenger side of the car, thru the window, onto what looked like a child and a woman in the driver seat"

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by Defrock View Post
    I think you did fine, but why did they check your weapon for "legalness" if you weren't suspected of doing anything wrong?
    I guess just to make sure it wasn't stolen, I got my gun back, I wasn't to worried about it the time, I'm unsure of the protocols and laws of what they have to do when a weapon is used.

    Maverick9
    You drew down on someone for pounding on a car window?

    Don't have the attitude that you're a police officer.
    Reread my post please. Banging on a car window, I would have kept driving.

    peter nap
    I think it was a judgement call, I wasn't there and it isn't Monday morning.

    Weapon aside, you did just fine by getting involved. Normally I say to mind your own business but in that case there was no way to tell what was happening.
    Looked quite violent, and the guy was easily double the size of me in weight, and I know if he had swung on me I'd be on the ground. Thats why there was a weapon involved.

    kenny
    You observed a violent confrontation. You stopped a criminal act and possibly saved a life. Thank God we will never know what the outcome could been. Job Well Done.
    Thank you, and I don't wanna know what the outcome could have been.
    SouthernBoy
    I would be very concerned that they ran your serial number. You may want to check into that one.
    Like I said I was unsure of the procedures.

    TFred
    Originally Posted by Maverick9
    "You drew down on someone for pounding on a car window?

    Don't have the attitude that you're a police officer."
    Did you read the post?

    "pounding as hard as he could inside on a passenger side of the car, thru the window, onto what looked like a child and a woman in the driver seat"

    TFred
    Thanks TFred.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    why did they check your weapon for "legalness" if you weren't suspected of doing anything wrong?
    I guess just to make sure it wasn't stolen


    Just say no to unwarranted seizures & searches!

    They must have RAS (reasonable articulable suspicion) that your property was, is, or shortly will be used in a crime in order for them to seize it, let alone search it (run the serial #).

    Unless they had a report of a similar gun being stolen, there was no reason to suspect the gun you had was stolen (most aren't, so the default setting is that it's legally possessed).

    Since they'd been told that you stopped an assault, they had no reason to think that you had used it in a crime.

    I strongly suggest watching the videos available at www.flexyourrights.org or on their YouTube channel.
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    I'm curious, did you actually point the firearm at the guy, or just have it drawn low and visible while you were giving him commands?

  11. #11
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post


    Just say no to unwarranted seizures & searches!

    They must have RAS (reasonable articulable suspicion) that your property was, is, or shortly will be used in a crime in order for them to seize it, let alone search it (run the serial #).

    Unless they had a report of a similar gun being stolen, there was no reason to suspect the gun you had was stolen (most aren't, so the default setting is that it's legally possessed).

    Since they'd been told that you stopped an assault, they had no reason to think that you had used it in a crime.

    I strongly suggest watching the videos available at www.flexyourrights.org or on their YouTube channel.
    Careful with that advice.

    SOP in a situation like that is to charge the man with a gun with Brandishing, and let the Judge sort it out. Happens often and when it does, you not only get the serial number run, you have to request the judge to release the gun.

    If you're in a gun unfriendly place like Leesburg, there can be big problems.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Based on what you have posted, the cops had determined before they decided to run your gun's serial number that you were not the BG/criminal in this event.

    So - what freaking reason do they have to run your handgun's serial number for anything? Seriously, are they going to try and float some story that even though you stole the gun you were willing to pull it out to stop a violent confrontation and then hang around for them to show up and "investigate" the living daylights out of the situation? Really?

    Did they run the VIN to see if any of the cars were stolen? They could have been!

    Did they run your mom's Social Security number to see if she was reported missing from some place she was supposed to be at? She could have been!

    For that matter, did they run your SS# to see if you were a wanted criminal or a convicted felon who should not be possessing a firearm? You could have been!

    In other words, besides running your handgun's serial number to get it into some local database, what purpose was there for them to do that?

    This "routine" running of serial numbers has to be stopped. Confronting the LEA administration and pinning them down to providing a reasonable explanation for the behavior (actually pinning themm down until they admit there is no reasonable explanation) takes time, dedication, and a willingness to confront them on each and every bit of harassment they try to use to get you to stop making them look like jerks.

    stay safe.
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    You always have to be careful getting involved in a situation like this. You don't know what happened before you got there, and who is the victim and who is the aggressor. In this situation it seems pretty obvious with one guy in the car, but you never know. What if someone is being robbed by a criminal with a knife, and the victim fights back, takes the guy down, and they are rolling around throwing punches? If the victim is now on top of the criminal hitting him, are you going to draw down on him? In the end it's a judgement call. By getting involved you could be risking a brandishing charge, or worse. I'm not saying not to help people, just know the risks and use your best judgement before deciding to get involved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blk97F150 View Post
    I'm curious, did you actually point the firearm at the guy, or just have it drawn low and visible while you were giving him commands?
    I pointed it at him, until I realized he was just throwing punches, there was no knife (as stated, It looked like he was stabbing the passenger) I lowered my weapon.

    You always have to be careful getting involved in a situation like this. You don't know what happened before you got there, and who is the victim and who is the aggressor. In this situation it seems pretty obvious with one guy in the car, but you never know. What if someone is being robbed by a criminal with a knife, and the victim fights back, takes the guy down, and they are rolling around throwing punches? If the victim is now on top of the criminal hitting him, are you going to draw down on him? In the end it's a judgement call. By getting involved you could be risking a brandishing charge, or worse. I'm not saying not to help people, just know the risks and use your best judgement before deciding to get involved.
    I understand, that and if it was just a physical fight (outside of a car), I probably would have approached the situation alot differently, I know things are rarely as they appear.
    And to be honest, with situations like this, I will always assume the worse, because I usually see the worst in my line of work (I am a EMT). If me getting a brandishing charge (and yes I know how serious that is), compared to anybodys life, I'll gladly take the charge.

    I just want to know that I did not over react because even though I thought there was a weapon involved there wasn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EMTLovell View Post
    I just want to know that I did not over react because even though I thought there was a weapon involved there wasn't.
    You stopped an attack, and didn't get arrested. Seems like things worked out ok for all involved.

    Btw, thanks for posting. I tend to think its good to read about others experiences, and play the 'what if' game in my own mind.... trying to put myself in that situation mentally. Its also good to read the responses from others, some who have been in similar situations, and may have handled it differently.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Regarding the LEO's illegal search (running the serial number)... I would imagine the OP was rather spun up at the moment. I wouldn't give him too much grief for not remembering to handle this one small part of the encounter in a manner that is difficult under the best of circumstances.

    Not to dismiss it... perhaps a call to the Sheriff/Chief is in order just to provide a comment that this inappropriate action was taken, and further training seems to be in order.

    JMHO...

    TFred

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    To be honest, I wonder how much of this story is actually true.

    Consider that the OP said he first thought that a big person was stabbing a woman and a child and that's why he pulled over. He ran up to the car and confirmed this and that's when he went back to his car and got his firearm and then momentarily pointed it at them.

    Then he says he made the big guy, who somehow got out of the car, partially follow his instruction to get on his knees and hands up. Yet he also managed to call 911 or somehow the cops showed up but the big guy had run off.

    THEN he says he realized later it was a fist fight between two men and no knife was involved. And yet the cops didn't go after the guy, they didn't apparently arrest anyone and they got hold of the guy who ran off (I think).

    Further, the OP told the cops he pulled his firearm and drew down on the guy (which seems like utter folly to me), making sure the cops knew he had a gun and then ran the serial number.

    I don't know of ANYONE who would keep their gun out after the big BG ran off and further tell the cops they brandished.

    But, hey, if that's the story the OP wants to tell, I'd say he's very lucky he didn't get arrested for brandishing, because in hindsight (or foresight on the part of the cops) that's EXACTLY what he did. Any cop that would say 'good job' to someone who ran up and pointed a gun at one of two men who were having a fist fight inside a car that they did a 'good job, man', needs to go back to cop school.

    At the very LEAST they should have told this guy that he should NOT do something like this again and explain how dangerous it is.

    FWIW.

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    In my best, deepest, most manly firearms instructor voice, I will say the following.....

    "Get thee some training".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    To be honest, I wonder how much of this story is actually true.

    Consider that the OP said he first thought that a big person was stabbing a woman and a child and that's why he pulled over. He ran up to the car and confirmed this and that's when he went back to his car and got his firearm and then momentarily pointed it at them.

    Then he says he made the big guy, who somehow got out of the car, partially follow his instruction to get on his knees and hands up. Yet he also managed to call 911 or somehow the cops showed up but the big guy had run off.


    THEN he says he realized later it was a fist fight between two men and no knife was involved. And yet the cops didn't go after the guy, they didn't apparently arrest anyone and they got hold of the guy who ran off (I think).

    Further, the OP told the cops he pulled his firearm and drew down on the guy (which seems like utter folly to me), making sure the cops knew he had a gun and then ran the serial number.

    I don't know of ANYONE who would keep their gun out after the big BG ran off and further tell the cops they brandished.

    But, hey, if that's the story the OP wants to tell, I'd say he's very lucky he didn't get arrested for brandishing, because in hindsight (or foresight on the part of the cops) that's EXACTLY what he did. Any cop that would say 'good job' to someone who ran up and pointed a gun at one of two men who were having a fist fight inside a car that they did a 'good job, man', needs to go back to cop school.

    At the very LEAST they should have told this guy that he should NOT do something like this again and explain how dangerous it is.

    FWIW.
    1. I didn't call 911, bystanders did, after he got on his knees, I put my weapon in my waist band, no need for it. He got up, and walked away from me, I saw no point in making a bad situation worse by following him.
    2. They did go to the guys house, from what I understand, and the victim knew him.
    3. What was I suppose to tell the LEOs? I was walking down the street, with an ice cream cone?
    4. See Number One, My weapon was secured as soon as the guy got on his knees.
    5. Yes Dangerous... But what if had been a knife, and he was stabbing the guy.

    But choose to believe what you want, and don't want.
    Last edited by EMTLovell; 04-13-2013 at 02:39 AM. Reason: Add additional info.

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMTLovell View Post
    1. I didn't call 911, bystanders did, after he got on his knees, I put my weapon in my waist band, no need for it. He got up, and walked away from me, I saw no point in making a bad situation worse by following him.
    ISTM you made the situation worse by intervening in a non-life threatening situation by introducing a firearm. This is the kind of thing that people cite when they say civilians shouldn't have guns. Had you not had a gun and just run up to the car and said 'I'm calling 911' the guy would have likely stopped and gotten out and walked home.

    2. They did go to the guys house, from what I understand, and the victim knew him.
    This doesn't jive with the timeline. You got kudos and the police hadn't even seen the aggressor?

    3. What was I suppose to tell the LEOs? I was walking down the street, with an ice cream cone?
    Hi, I'm an overly excited person with a firearm eager to use it to play policeman.

    But choose to believe what you want, and don't want.
    I believe you should get some training, learn to keep quiet around police and mind your own business. A permit is for you to protect yourself and your loved ones, not to go drawing down on every contentious situation you encounter. It makes all gun carriers look bad.

    HTH
    Last edited by Maverick9; 04-13-2013 at 08:18 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EMTLovell View Post
    My Question: I am 120lbs, 5 7, the offender was atleast 250lbs, 6 4, and it looked like he was stabbing a child in the car, did I do the right thing by drawing a weapon?
    Question 2: What if I knew it was a simple physical fight, Would I still be justified in drawing a weapon to break it up.
    Good job.

    To answer your second question, punching someone can be a deadly act (especially repeatedly) So you stopped someone from using deadly force by presenting your firearm.
    Last edited by Doughnutman; 04-13-2013 at 12:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    ISTM you made the situation worse by intervening in a non-life threatening situation by introducing a firearm. This is the kind of thing that people cite when they say civilians shouldn't have guns. Had you not had a gun and just run up to the car and said 'I'm calling 911' the guy would have likely stopped and gotten out and walked home.HTH
    What if you walked up and said you were going to call 911 and he started beating you to death? Would you rather have a cellphone in your hand or a firearm?

  23. #23
    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doughnutman View Post
    What if you walked up and said you were going to call 911 and he started beating you to death? Would you rather have a cellphone in your hand or a firearm?
    I didn't say 'disarm yourself'. But maybe that's a good reason to stay in your car. What good are you to your loved ones if you stop and get out of your car and draw down on people inside a car having a confusing conflict?

    If I were the cops and this guy told me this story, I'd arrest him for brandishing. He drew down on an unarmed person.

    But I think the story is largely false. Why? Look at the title. It was NOT a positive encounter and anyone who reads OCDO knows that having your gun serial number is not going to be viewed as such. I think the story was a type of baiting - making people say 'oh ok, you saved a life, got a BG caught and a kudo from a LEO so it's really NOT SO BAD to have your serial number run'. ALSO how would the guy know they ran the number. Cops rarely tell someone what they're doing.

    And the story is one of hallucinating a woman and small child and a knife inside a car that really held two men, even after the OP walked up to the car for a close second look.

    Did he call 911 first, then get his gun out of the car? THAT ALONE is bad judgment. He could have been shot by a passerby. The big guy could have been an undercover cop.

    Then we're to believe the cops said 'good job' and they hadn't even caught the big guy who walked off, until later.
    Last edited by Maverick9; 04-13-2013 at 01:30 PM.

  24. #24
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doughnutman View Post
    To answer your second question, punching someone can be a deadly act (especially repeatedly) So you stopped someone from using deadly force by presenting your firearm.
    Let's not forget that in the aftermath of the Newtown shooting, it has been revealed that the latest FBI statistics confirm that THREE TIMES more murders are committed with bare hands or feet that with rifles of all kinds.

    Statistically speaking this person in the car was at much more risk of being murdered than if the person was pointing an "ugly black rifle" at them.

    TFred

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    [QUOTE=EMTLovell;1924920]I often OC or Conceal (I do have a CHP) on my person when it is just me, as many of my friends, do support guns but do not agree with carrying them every where. But I always keep a 9mm in my car, in a holster in my door panel.
    After taking my terminally ill mother to ride in a New Camaro at Berglund (It was on her bucket list and those guys really helped me out) we were coming down Williamson, and I notice this guy (About 6 4, 250-300lbs) , just pounding as hard as he could inside on a passenger side of the car, thru the window, onto what looked like a child and a woman in the driver seat, just screaming for help. I pulled in real quick, jumped out of my car, assessed the scene, and the guy looked like he was stabbing inside the car, and this is when I noticed how big he was. So I double backed to my car real quick, grabbed the 9mm, and with safety on (I have always been taught, unless your about to pull the trigger, the safety stays on) I instructed the gun to get off of him, get on his knees, and face on the pavement. He semi-Complied with the knees and pavement, but end result, it stopped the fight, then fled. when I put my weapon in my waistband.
    Turns out just a fight between to men, but it looked alot worse.
    Being the EMT that I am, I'm worried about the guy because he got atleast 6 hits in before I could end the situation.
    The guy decides to call the police, so we pull into parking spaces, I clear my weapon, and lock it back, police gets on scene, at first they were all like hands in the air, get on the ground don't effin move etc etc. So they get the weapon, Grab my ID, CHP etc, get the guy's story, and then they find out I just broke it up, and told me "get over here, good job man" and they gave my weapon back to me before the reports were even taking, after calling and making sure it was a legal fire arm. Took Reports, and good from there, we left.

    My Question: I am 120lbs, 5 7, the offender was atleast 250lbs, 6 4, and it looked like he was stabbing a child in the car, did I do the right thing by drawing a weapon?
    Question 2: What if I knew it was a simple physical fight, Would I still be justified in drawing a weapon to break it up.

    My unsolicited advice is be very careful of what you post on the Internet

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