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Thread: Would you stop?

  1. #1
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    Would you stop?

    I was driving through Fond Du Lac Today while carrying my pistol and saw someone pulled over by a car with flashing lights but this car was not a police car, it had regular plates and was a older SUV and the driver had no uniform and basically looked like a factory worker. I thought to myself would I even pull over in this situation when I was carrying.
    The driver of the SUV really did not look a cop. What would you do?

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    If you are being pulled over or is trying to pull you over by someone who you don't think is a LEO. Keep driving at a resonable speed. Head to some place public well lighted and with people around. If its a real LEO there soon well be marked crusiers joining in.

    If you have a cell phone call 911 tell them that you are trying to be stopped by some one you don't belive is LEO and they soon well tell if is an official stop or not.

    The key is to drive reasonably if it is a real LEO one doesn't want to be breaking a lot of traffic regulations.
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    Really? What is the law? IIRC it's about Wisc. Stats. Ch. 300 - 350

    Where I am at the moment, about 100 miles east of the express-drugway Eye-95, lights OR siren is sufficient to make a legal mandatory traffic stop.

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    I wouldn't insert myself into that situation unless there was obvious violence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Really? What is the law? IIRC it's about Wisc. Stats. Ch. 300 - 350

    Where I am at the moment, about 100 miles east of the express-drugway Eye-95, lights OR siren is sufficient to make a legal mandatory traffic stop.
    Kalifornia is a few miles west of here. I would check with their laws/statutes.
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    The person that pulled over the car had no siren that I could tell all he had was a set of flashing LED lights in his grill and
    a red flashing light on his dash and the vehicle was a 2003-2004 SUV that was kind of rough looking. I do not know where
    someone can buy the red and blue lights but I know you can buy amber ones at fleet farm. If this happened to me I would call 911 and inform them of the events. I was just wary because I was carrying at the time.

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    Wisconsin Statutes ss 346.04

    The topic is of Wisconsin's traffic stops which requires a marked vehicle and mentions that an unmarked cannot make a legal traffic stop, lights/siren is insufficient. Wisconsin Statutes ss 346.04 and case law noted there.

    Where I am ATM, South Carolina's Seabrook Island, lights or siren are sufficient to indicate a legal mandatory stop and that includes all the federal agencies patrolling I-95.

    Kalifornia has about ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND statute sub-sections equivalent to Wisconsin's thousand chapters of statutes. Here is the vehicle code http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/vc/vctoc.htm [...]

    COMMENTS EDITED BY ADMINISTRATOR: Rude & profane
    Last edited by John Pierce; 04-15-2013 at 11:27 AM.

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    It sounds to me like a volunteer fire fighter pulling someone over. Without red AND blue lights I would not pull over, but would call 911 and proceed in a legal manner to follow the dispatchers instructions.
    Last edited by Yetiman; 04-14-2013 at 10:45 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    The topic is of Wisconsin's traffic stops which requires a marked vehicle and mentions that an unmarked cannot make a legal traffic stop, lights/siren is insufficient. Wisconsin Statutes ss 346.04 and case law noted there.
    You're reading that statute incorrectly. It has to do with fleeing and charging someone with fleeing/eluding. Nothing in it says an officer can't make a traffic stop in an unmarked vehicle.

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    The OP asked "what would you do?" Me, from the facts presented, I would not do anything ..

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    No, I probably wouldn't pull over for an unmarked one, unless it was into a populated area & got 911 on the phone. Too easy to impersonate an officer, and I don't want to hurt anyone.

    OK, Pete, you've confused me. (Congratulations.)
    Since 346.04 says that nobody can be charged with fleeing or eluding unless it's a marked vehicle (and giving a visual OR audible signal) why would someone in an unmarked car even try to do a traffic stop?
    They can't enforce it unless it's a marked vehicle.
    Or are you saying that even in an unmarked vehicle, that's still a "traffic officer"? (But how would someone know?)

    "willful" requires a subjective understanding by the defendant that a person known by the defendant to be a traffic officer has directed the defendant to take a particular action, and with that understanding, the defendant chose to act in contravention of the officer's direction...
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    OK, Pete, you've confused me. (Congratulations.)
    Since 346.04 says that nobody can be charged with fleeing or eluding unless it's a marked vehicle (and giving a visual OR audible signal) why would someone in an unmarked car even try to do a traffic stop?
    They can't enforce it unless it's a marked vehicle.
    Because 99.9999999999999999999999999% of traffic violators pull over for an unmarked squad. Surely you've seen them on the freeways around here. The Crown Vics have dried up for the most part. Now the unmarks are Dodge Chargers and Chevy Impalas. There are a few unmarked SUV's. Completely unmarked and the lights are set up so they can't bee identified until they are on.

    Judges hate them. No agency I know of would allow one to be used in a pursuit or road block. But they work well for Super-Slab Star Wars or sitting in a parking lot running Lidar. Like shooting fish in a barrel.

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    I would not stop for an unmarked "police" vehicle. When I lived in Florida there were some "people" driving around with the blue blinking lights next to or in their head lights. They thought it was fun to flip the lights on and make people get out of their way or stop. They (He?) went too far one day when they pulled that stunt on an off duty officer. He had a REAL police vehicle stop and arrest the driver. These days you never know who is or isn't a police officer unless the officer appears to be an officer in every regard. Better safe than sorry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcawdor57 View Post
    I would not stop for an unmarked "police" vehicle. When I lived in Florida there were some "people" driving around with the blue blinking lights next to or in their head lights. They thought it was fun to flip the lights on and make people get out of their way or stop. They (He?) went too far one day when they pulled that stunt on an off duty officer. He had a REAL police vehicle stop and arrest the driver. These days you never know who is or isn't a police officer unless the officer appears to be an officer in every regard. Better safe than sorry.
    Lbertarianism cures this. No libertarian would be caught dead impersonating an agent of the state.
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    Would you stop?

    I will stop but if a plain clothes or black clad ninja exits, I am outta there. I will then call in a police impersonator and let the marked units figure it out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites
    sitting in a parking lot running Lidar. Like shooting fish in a barrel.
    That makes sense, and seems to be a good use for them.
    But then we get into questions like how can an officer write a ticket saying he witnessed a car driving X mph when he really didn't? Isn't that lying on a legal document*?
    And wouldn't both the lidar officer & the ticket agent have to appear in court to testify against the driver?

    *(don't get me started)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    That makes sense, and seems to be a good use for them.
    But then we get into questions like how can an officer write a ticket saying he witnessed a car driving X mph when he really didn't? Isn't that lying on a legal document*?
    And wouldn't both the lidar officer & the ticket agent have to appear in court to testify against the driver?

    *(don't get me started)
    Yes if the case goes to trial they both show up. They each testify to the part they played.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    That makes sense, and seems to be a good use for them.
    But then we get into questions like how can an officer write a ticket saying he witnessed a car driving X mph when he really didn't? Isn't that lying on a legal document*?
    And wouldn't both the lidar officer & the ticket agent have to appear in court to testify against the driver?
    I'm confused by this post. There wouldn't be 2 officers involved. One officer in an unmarked car either parked in a public lot, or on the street parallel parked between some cars. Motorists zip right past unaware it's a squad car.

    *Zap* with a hand held lasar (lidar) or radar gun. Why on Earth would there be 2 officers involved?

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    We used chase cars all the time have one speed equipment operator and several chase cars. Just like using an airplane with VASCAR. The LIDAR operator gives the speed and vehicle ifomation to the proper chase car. The chase car writes the citation the LIDAR operator finds another violator gives them to the next chase car.

    With 4 or 5 chase cars a large number of citations are issued with in short order.
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    doesnt an officer have to show you the radar, lidar reading if the driver requests it?
    i was always told they had to and if they couldnt provide it the judge dismissed the case i have never tested that but i have asked to see my reading before (back in high school i as the only car on the road and didnt believe the officer on how fast he said i was going speedometer was a little off)
    Last edited by oliverclotheshoff; 04-15-2013 at 02:23 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    We used chase cars all the time have one speed equipment operator and several chase cars. Just like using an airplane with VASCAR. The LIDAR operator gives the speed and vehicle ifomation to the proper chase car. The chase car writes the citation the LIDAR operator finds another violator gives them to the next chase car.

    With 4 or 5 chase cars a large number of citations are issued with in short order.
    This is called "daisy chaining" and it can be done using any speed device, radar, etc. I'm thinking some here are unaware of handheld laser/radar units and how they work. It only takes one officer.



    Quote Originally Posted by oliverclotheshoff View Post
    doesnt an officer have to show you the radar, lidar reading if the driver requests it?
    i was always told they had to and if they couldnt provide it the judge dismissed the case
    NO. You were told wrong. This is 100% incorrect, at least in Wisconsin it is. I never show anyone a speed reading. It is a boon to my safety to keep a violator in their car unless I absolutely have to have then get them out. It is for their safety also. Especially on a busy highway.

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    It also allows an extra-legal sneaky sniff and peek, searches without warrant. This was taught me during my tenure as citizen's advisory board member for an accredited PD. If the traffic stop is at all 'complicated', wash the vehicle ASAP especially anywhere the cop may have put his thumb/hand-print.

    The common free advise here on OCDO is to greet the cop at the front of your vehicle, on the curb, with your papers in hand, vehicle closed, secured and locked, and with the keys pocketed. Anything that you say will be used against you. You might consider leaving your carry piece in the car for officer safety.

    In Wisconsin the relevant state statutes are https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/prefaces/toc

    345.22 Authority to arrest without a warrant. A person may be arrested without a warrant for the violation of a traffic regulation if the traffic officer has reasonable grounds to believe that the person is violating or has violated a traffic regulation.
    History: 1971 c. 278.

    345.23 Officer’s action after arrest without a warrant. If a person is arrested without a warrant for the violation of a traffic regulation, the arresting officer shall issue a citation under s.345.11, and in addition: ...
    Note the absence of warrant in a traffic stop and its effect on the Fourth and Fifth Amendments. We have only the rights that we defend.

    Also common advise here on OCDO is never take legal information from a cop , they are not bound to truth. Particularly, I would add, one so bold as to claim elite status.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 04-15-2013 at 04:10 PM.

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    It also allows an extra-legal sneaky sniff and peek

    http://www.jsonline.com/news/wiscons...ment=118513112

    John Von Neumann Two - Yesterday at 6:12 PM - Report Abuse
    I was a Cop for 25 years and made hundreds of OWI arrests. This will just require more and a better system to get and obtain the necessary warrant to get and obtain the blood evidence. It does not vacate the drivers requirement to give a test sample or they will have there drivers license suspended for noncompliance. Where this comes into play is in Criminal OWI cases involving death, injury, or multiple prior offenses. This is were they usually draw blood, because it is perfect evidence. Now the Cops will have to justify the blood draw to a Judge and not go on a fishing expedition just because the suspects has prior convictions, or somebody was severely injured or killed. This can be hard at a serious accident, where nobody saw the supposed offender exhibit indications of intoxication and due to injures can not preform field sobriety tests to get probable cause to arrest for OWI, and now get information to get a warrant for a blood draw...

    Old 66, I don't know if a Judges will give a warrant sole on the basis of oder of alcoholic beverage on a suspects breath without further evidence of impairment.
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    That makes sense, and seems to be a good use for them.
    But then we get into questions like how can an officer write a ticket saying he witnessed a car driving X mph when he really didn't? Isn't that lying on a legal document*?
    And wouldn't both the lidar officer & the ticket agent have to appear in court to testify against the driver?

    *(don't get me started)
    Yes, both the laser user and the chase car cop are required to appear, otherwise you can object everything as hearsay.
    Now there are very few small town judges who actually follow the law, and refuse to toss the case, and appealing is cost prohibitive, so have the law and caselaw printed (there is a ton of it out there on this very specific topic) to educate the judge. It is also beneficial to have the operations manual for the laser unit with you where the manufacturer states limitations.
    Also, anything over 1000 feet when laser is used is questionable due to the sighting apparatus and a hand-held laser unit not being accurate at that range. they could be sweeping cars over a several yard range both next to you, in front and behind you. There is no visible laser marks on the target vehicles to verify that they are on target. Many have FOIA'd cops handgun shooting qualifications to show how inaccurate they are at 20 feet, now imagine something 10 times heavier being held steady without a tripod with a zero magnification sight, and over 300 yards.
    The LTI 20/20 (the Geico gun) was proven to show stationary objects traveling at speed due to slight movement of the unit while targeting. A defense attorney showed a courtroom wall to be moving in excess of 30 MPH during a trial.

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    No! I would not. Blue lights yes, red or yelllow or orenge...No! I would pull over for emergencie vehicles but not an unmarked "pOleece" car.

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