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Chelan County PUD Parks

slapmonkay

Campaign Veteran
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
1,308
Location
Montana
I just got off the phone with John Janney and due to my email and the several emails and phone calls, they are going to continue to review this section of code and get back with me.

He did inform me that they do have a legal department that reviewed the previous request, and the legal department in fact was the ones that gave the recommend changes. I asked if there was any public documentation regarding the legal departments recommendation and he did not know (might need to submit FOIA, to get full disclosure on the legal departments reasoning).

I ask that you continue to email/call them with feedback as it seems like they are at least tracking the response.
 

EMNofSeattle

Regular Member
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Aug 7, 2012
Messages
3,670
Location
S. Kitsap, Washington state
No, Eric, not that they won't enforce it, but they CAN"T enforce it.
This will be part of the discussion on Saturday.

still the point remains, they physically type whatever they want on a sign. They can type "big purple flies gazelle" on the sign..... it doesn't matter. they have no legal authority to enforce. so carry away.
 

mikeyb

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2013
Messages
554
Location
Bothell
They are fear-mongering people, exploiting this section: "in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons."

Walking in a park, on a sidewalk, in a store, etc., supports no evidence towards being dangerous. Regardless of their reasoning, it still contradicts state pre-emption, since it is more restrictive than what state law allows.

RCW .290:
The state of Washington hereby fully occupies and preempts the entire field of firearms regulation within the boundaries of the state"

RCW .300:
(2) Cities, towns, counties, and other municipalities may enact laws and ordinances:

(a) Restricting the discharge of firearms in any portion of their respective jurisdictions where there is a reasonable likelihood that humans, domestic animals, or property will be jeopardized. Such laws and ordinances shall not abridge the right of the individual guaranteed by Article I, section 24 of the state Constitution to bear arms in defense of self or others; and

(b) Restricting the possession of firearms in any stadium or convention center, operated by a city, town, county, or other municipality, except that such restrictions shall not apply to:

(i) Any pistol in the possession of a person licensed under RCW 9.41.070 or exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060; or

(ii) Any showing, demonstration, or lecture involving the exhibition of firearms.

They're going up the river De Nile. Without a paddle.:banghead:
 

hermannr

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
2,327
Location
Okanogan Highland
Email sent.

Comment...I have enjoyed Chelan Co PUD parks within the last year. I have also (as always) OC'd in those parks with no problems. I will say that the Chelan Co Sheriff's Deputies I have encountered do know the law, to include RCW 9.41.060(8). To quote one Chelan Co Deputy..."I see nothing illegal going on here"

My email:

Mr. Janney!

It has recently come to my attention that Chelan Co parks has a firearms policy (9) that is inconsistent with state law. May I quote a snip: (BTW: There is nothing in the following snip that is “consistent” with WA state law”)

“Consistent with state statute and to ensure that all park patrons feel safe and secure in a park area, no person shall openly display, exhibit, brandish or draw any firearm or other weapon in a park, except as specifically provided in this section. This provision does not restrict persons from properly carrying concealed weapons with appropriate permits as allowed by law enforcement.”

Point number one: You do not allow the Sheriff’s deputies in your parks? Of course you do. I know you do allow the deputies to open carry their weapons in your parks, I have seen them there, while I was there...Therefore, I must assume a properly holstered, open carried, pistol must not be what you mean in you “openly display” statement. Otherwise it would against policy for a deputy to carry his pistol on your property. This is a very blatant attempt to discourage what is legal, and will result in nothing good for anyone if someone tries to enforce an illegal interpretation of this policy, especially nothing good for Chelan Co PUD. It could become quite expensive for you. BTW: same goes for a rifle or shotgun, loaded, or not (as long as the long gun is not loaded while in a vehicle) I think that if someone were to call in to 911 that there was “a man with a gun” for a legal carry, Chelan PUD could be shown liable for the cost of that call, and abuse of the system because of the way this policy statement is written.

Point number two: The state of Washington has no “brandish” law and has not defined the term. As the state has not defined “brandish” you are already outside the bounds of what is allowed by RCW 9.41.300 if for no other reason. It is obvious you either do not know the law, choose to ignore the law, or you are from some other state. Try Washington state law, and follow it. Do not try to impose some other states law. BTW: you so do not understand the statement on “Exhibit” I will not even address it here. You might want to read some of the WA AG opinions, they might help you understand.

Point number three: I need no “permission”, or permission slip, from anyone, under any circumstances, to carry openly or concealed, in your park. The state of Washington constitution, Article 1 Section 24 states it is my personal, individual, right to carry arms for my own self defense. RCW 9.41.060(8) states that while going to, coming from, or participating in, any outdoor recreational activity, (I would assume I was participating in an “outdoor recreational activity” if I was to be in one of your parks in the first place) “any person” is exempt from the provisions of RCW 9.41.050 (and also exempt from several other provisions in other sections of RCW 9.41.)

I would seriously suggest that you obtain legal council and revise your policy statement to reflect current state law before you have an expensive law suit on your hands. You might take your blinders off when you do so. the open carrying of a pistol for your personal self defense is legal in the state of Washington, no nanny slip required. Chan V Seattle was very expensive for Seattle. I do not think Chelan PUD would really want to repeat that futile effort and waste even more money on a law that has already been settled.

RCW 9.41.300 allows you to restrict the discharge of firearms within your park, except for self-defense RCW 9.41.300(2)(a)

“(2) Cities, towns, counties, and other municipalities may enact laws and ordinances:

(a) Restricting the discharge of firearms in any portion of their respective jurisdictions where there is a reasonable likelihood that humans, domestic animals, or property will be jeopardized. Such laws and ordinances shall not abridge the right of the individual guaranteed by Article I, section 24 of the state Constitution to bear arms in defense of self or others;”

Try reading OUR Washington State law, and utilizing legal council, before you try write your policy statements.

Sincerely yours:

My name:
Tonasket, WA 98855


Not in this email, but for the forum...BTW: Tonasket 9.22, 9.24, and 9.50 have been officially changed. It is not reflected online yet, but it was done at last town council meeting.
 
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rapgood

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2012
Messages
598
Location
Stanwood, WA
They are trying to play the game of 9.41.270, saying that an individual would 'warrant alarm' by openly carrying a firearm.

They must have missed the part of State v Spencer where it “only prohibits the carrying or displaying of weapons when objective circumstances would warrant alarm in a reasonable person.” and “the Legislature’s use of the word ‘warrants’ in the statue implies that there must be a sufficient objective basis for the alarm, i.e., circumstances must be such that a reasonable person would be alarmed.”

Actually, the more relevant case is State v. Maciolek, where the court held that the term "warrants alarm" refers only to conduct that poses an actual threat. The mere display of a firearm with nothing else does not rise to the level of warranting alarm. The Maciolek court held, "If a weapon is displayed in a manner, under circumstances and at a time and place so that it poses a threat to another person, such a display would warrant alarm for the safety of another. Thus, narrowly construing the phrase to apply to only conduct that poses a threat to others gives the phrase a narrow and definite focus and saves it from vagueness."

This was discussed here on the list a couple of years back.

So, call rapgood and see if he'll sue them for injunctive and declaratory relief.

John Janney is wrong in his interpretation of .270. If you guys want to take up a collection to have me challenge it in court, I will. Unfortunately, I don't have the bandwidth right now to take it on pro bono as I am fairly busy right now working on keeping some of you out of jail in cases where the state is maliciously prosecuting under .270 for conduct that was wholly lawful.
 
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deanf

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N47º 12’ x W122º 10’
Lawyers aren't required here. A Writ of Mandamus is. A simple lawsuit to force a government official to either stop doing something they aren't supposed to be, or forcing them to do something they are supposed to.

The Chan decision is the whole case. It couldn't be more of a slam-dunk. Chelan PUD is a municipal corporation. Seattle is a municipal corporation. Chelan PUD is trying to keep guns out of parks. Seattle was trying to keep guns out of parks. It's the exact same issue.
 

golddigger14s

Activist Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
2,068
Location
Lawton, OK USA
How about somebody in the area find out when the board meetings are, and show up OC to present facts like was done at Port Orchard. Use recent decisions by other cities as examples. Lacey, Yelm, PO, and of course the Seattle court case. Once they realize "resistance is futile", (sorry, couldn't resist) they may do a 180.
 
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slapmonkay

Campaign Veteran
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
1,308
Location
Montana
Here is a copy of the email I had sent to board directors and the general manager.

Dear [Insert Name],

I am writing you today in regards to your recently revised Chelan PUD code Section 9, regarding Firearms and/or Weapons. It has come to my attention that your recent review of the code, as modified, is still inconsistent with state law and preempted by the state.

The Attorney General Opinion, AGO 2008 No. 8, clarifies the Washington state preemption statute.
The AG states that “RCW 9.41.290 preempts a city’s authority to adopt firearms laws or regulations of application to the general public, unless specifically authorized by state law. Accordingly, RCW 9.41.290 preempts a city’s authority to enact local laws that prohibit possession of firearms on city property or in city-owned facilities.”​

Court ruling, 101 Wn.2d 259, STATE v. MACIOLEK, the court held:
"If a weapon is displayed in a manner, under circumstances and at a time and place so that it poses a threat to another person, such a display would warrant alarm for the safety of another. Thus, narrowly construing the phrase to apply to only conduct that poses a threat to others gives the phrase a narrow and definite focus and saves it from vagueness."​

In the appellate court ruling, 75 Wn. App. 118, State v. Spencer:
The court found that the 9.41.270 statute (referenced in Section 9, as its authority), “only prohibits the carrying or displaying of weapons when objective circumstances would warrant alarm in a reasonable person.” Further it states, “the Legislature’s use of the word ‘warrants’ in the statute implies that there must be a sufficient objective basis for the alarm, i.e., circumstances must be such that a reasonable person would be alarmed.”​

In another appellate court ruling, No. 35333-4-II State v. Casad.
The court found that “several individuals have commented that they would find it strange, maybe shocking, to see a man carrying a gun down the street in broad daylight. Casad’s appellate counsel conceded that she would personally react with shock, but she emphasized that an individual’s lack of comfort with firearms does not equate to reasonable alarm. We Agree. It is not unlawful for a person to responsibly walk down the street with a visible firearm, even if this action would shock some people.”​

Given this information and the recent Chan v Seattle court rulings that validates the Washington State preemption statute 9.41.290, in regards to cities authority to regulate carry of firearm in city parks, it is of my opinion that your counsel and/or board has error’ed in your decision to retain the preempted Chelan PUD code Section 9 statute. This decision may prove to be expensive as it leaves you open for litigation if the section is enforced. In recent events, the City of Oak Harbor has repealed their preempted statute in face of litigation from the Second Amendment Foundation. I will be informing the foundation of your lack of action in modifying your code to come into compliance with state law.

I respectfully request that you bring this information to attention, and re-consider the Section 9 statute. I would like to note that, I will continue to use Chelan PUD parks while openly carrying my self-defense firearm, as your statute is preempted.

Thank You,
[Insert Name]
 
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rapgood

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2012
Messages
598
Location
Stanwood, WA
Out of curiousity, what's a ballpark number for the cost of a court challenge of a park or city rule? I could see chipping in a few greenbacks to send some much needed wakeup calls.
An estimate would be around $5k - 7k, including all costs.

Lawyers aren't required here. A Writ of Mandamus is. A simple lawsuit to force a government official to either stop doing something they aren't supposed to be, or forcing them to do something they are supposed to.

The Chan decision is the whole case. It couldn't be more of a slam-dunk. Chelan PUD is a municipal corporation. Seattle is a municipal corporation. Chelan PUD is trying to keep guns out of parks. Seattle was trying to keep guns out of parks. It's the exact same issue.

I think what you are referring to is actually a Writ of Prohibition. In a Writ of Mandamus, a person can be said to be aggrieved only when he is denied a legal right by someone who has a legal duty to do something and abstains from doing it. Whereas a Writ of Prohibition is a writ directing any official body, whether a court or a county, city or town government, that is within the court's jurisdiction, to stop doing something the law prohibits. They are very similar, but are different. A Writ of Mandamus is considered corrective in nature, while a Writ of Prohibition is preventive in nature. In short, one is the counterpart of the other.

That said, I believe that, as in Chan, the appropriate remedy is declaratory and injunctive relief. But, before doing anything, I recommend that you seek the advice of a lawyer (and, no, I am not soliciting the business :lol:). If one files a lawsuit that a court later deems to be spurious, that person could be on the hook for potentially thousands of $$$ for the defendant's (here, the PUD's) legal fees.
 

rapgood

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Messages
598
Location
Stanwood, WA
Here is a copy of the email I had sent to board directors and the general manager.

Nicely done! And, although Casad cannot be used in a legal pleading as authority, the use of it in a letter such as yours is very effective! I like it! Someone really ought to ask that court to publish the Casad decision.
 

Amicus

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May 3, 2013
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33
Location
WA State
An estimate would be around $5k - 7k, including all costs.


If one files a lawsuit that a court later deems to be spurious, that person could be on the hook for potentially thousands of $$$ for the defendant's (here, the PUD's) legal fees.

Honestly, don't you think that's a stretch? I find it very hard to believe the court would invoke either RCW 4.84.185 or sanctions under Rule 11 to punish a petitioner for seeking relief against the municipality in a case like this. I'm sure (and know) stranger things have happened, but without a substantial prior history of vexatious litigation the WA courts would be hard pressed to justify such measures.
 

Fallschirjmäger

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Aug 4, 2007
Messages
3,823
Location
Cumming, Georgia, USA
RCW 9.41.270. The Chan case and RCW 9.41.290 do not apply.
RCW 9.41.290
State preemption.
The state of Washington hereby fully occupies and preempts the entire field of firearms regulation within the boundaries of the state, including the registration, licensing, possession, purchase, sale, acquisition, transfer, discharge, and transportation of firearms, or any other element relating to firearms or parts thereof, including ammunition and reloader components. Cities, towns, and counties or other municipalities may enact only those laws and ordinances relating to firearms that are specifically authorized by state law, as in RCW 9.41.300, and are consistent with this chapter. Such local ordinances shall have the same penalty as provided for by state law. Local laws and ordinances that are inconsistent with, more restrictive than, or exceed the requirements of state law shall not be enacted and are preempted and repealed, regardless of the nature of the code, charter, or home rule status of such city, town, county, or municipality


RCW 9.41.270
Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm — Unlawful carrying or handling — Penalty — Exceptions.

(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

(2) Any person violating the provisions of subsection (1) above shall be guilty of a gross misdemeanor. If any person is convicted of a violation of subsection (1) of this section, the person shall lose his or her concealed pistol license, if any. The court shall send notice of the revocation to the department of licensing, and the city, town, or county which issued the license.

(3) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to or affect the following:
(a) Any act committed by a person while in his or her place of abode or fixed place of business;
(b) Any person who by virtue of his or her office or public employment is vested by law with a duty to preserve public safety, maintain public order, or to make arrests for offenses, while in the performance of such duty;
(c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person;
(d) Any person making or assisting in making a lawful arrest for the commission of a felony; or
(e) Any person engaged in military activities sponsored by the federal or state governments.
 
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Fallschirjmäger

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Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
3,823
Location
Cumming, Georgia, USA
"Dear John
I'll be in the park on Tuesday; you'll recognize me instantly as I'll be wearing a yellow shirt, tan shorts, a holstered pistol, and a flower in my hair. Hope to make your acquaintance. I'll bring an extra soda if you want to invite a few friends.


See You Next Tuesday
-signed me"
 

rapgood

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Messages
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Location
Stanwood, WA
Honestly, don't you think that's a stretch? I find it very hard to believe the court would invoke either RCW 4.84.185 or sanctions under Rule 11 to punish a petitioner for seeking relief against the municipality in a case like this. I'm sure (and know) stranger things have happened, but without a substantial prior history of vexatious litigation the WA courts would be hard pressed to justify such measures.

Unfortunately, it happens more frequently than one would think.
 

rapgood

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Stanwood, WA
is there a deadline on when a court can choose to publish?

I haven't ever heard of one, but then I haven't looked into it. Also, I've only requested publication of decisions in my cases, not anyone else's, so I don't know the rules regarding standing without researching the question.
 

Stretch

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Nov 17, 2009
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Location
Pasco, WA, ,
Since the initial email response, there has been no further communication from Chelan PUD.

But today I am sitting here enjoying the softball while OC. At this time no issues.
 
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