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Thread: Laws in VA about getting stopped - road block - check point - DUI ?

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    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    Laws in VA about getting stopped - road block - check point - DUI ?

    I watched a few videos lately about people getting stopped by police and refusing to take DUI breaths, how to handle cops, protect yourself from 4th abuses. What can we do/refuse in VA when a cop stops us? I know I don't have to tell him where I am going, and I too crack my window 2-3 inches max. I seen cops in the videos threaten people, and I know each video is from different states so how does VA laws stack up and esp if you are open carrying. I don't have to get out of my car do I? no reason.??
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

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    The Fourth Amendment only prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures. Here's some discussion of the issues and cites to important cases.

    ... The appellant contends the Patrick County checkpoint was constitutionally deficient under the Fourth Amendment based on the general precedent of seminal cases regarding roadblocks. Appellant cites the United States Supreme Court's decision in Brown v. Texas, 443 U.S. 47 (1979), and the Supreme Court of Virginia's decision in Lowe v. Commonwealth, 230 Va. 346, 337 S.E.2d 273 (1985), cert. denied, 475 U.S. 1084 (1986). He does not contest the trooper's actual conduct of the checkpoint, but only the decision to implement it. Specifically, the appellant argues that the establishment of the checkpoint was unconstitutional under our decision in Hall v. Commonwealth, 12 Va. App. 972, 406 S.E.2d 674 (1991). His rationale is that (1) the field officers (Troopers Meade and Bowling) failed to give their supervisor an independent, site specific law enforcement reason for conducting the checkpoint and (2) the supervisor's (the First Sergeant's) approval of the checkpoint request was “rubber stamping” or “remote control supervision,” thereby rendering his supervisory approval illusory. We disagree and find the procedure used in this case by the state police to be constitutionally valid and supported by our decision in Crouch v. Commonwealth, 26 Va. App. 214, 494 S.E.2d 144 (1997).

    It is indisputable that the stopping of a motor vehicle during a traffic checking detail constitutes a seizure within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment. See Lowe, 230 Va. at 349, 337 S.E.2d at 275. The stop must, therefore, be reasonable so as to minimize intrusion into an individual's privacy. As such, the United States Supreme Court has held that “the Fourth Amendment requires that a seizure must be based on specific, objective facts indicating that society's legitimate interests require the seizure of the particular individual, or that the seizure must be carried out pursuant to a plan embodying explicit, neutral limitations on the conduct of individual officers.” Brown, 443 U.S. at 51. [Page 175] Law enforcement officers may not stop motorists in a wholly random and discretionary manner. However, the United States Supreme Court has stated in dicta, in Delaware v. Prouse, 440 U.S. 648 (1979), that a state is not precluded

    from developing methods for spot checks that involve less intrusion or that do not involve the unconstrained exercise of discretion. Questioning of all oncoming traffic at roadblock-type stops is one possible alternative.

    Id. at 663. When the field officers' discretion is limited and the checkpoint is established pursuant to an explicit plan, a checkpoint to ensure and improve traffic safety is lawful. See Indianapolis v. Edmond, 531 U.S. 32 (2000).

    “The validity of a checkpoint depends upon the amount of discretion remaining with the field officers operating the roadblock. Clearly, roadblocks are constitutional when conducted according to explicitly neutral plans which completely eliminate the discretion of the operating officers.” Crouch, 26 Va. App. at 218, 494 S.E.2d at 146. In Crouch, we upheld the constitutionality of a checkpoint where it was established in response to an assignment given to a state trooper to conduct a traffic checking detail at a specific location in Fauquier County some time during the work week. The trooper selected the day and time, and the trooper received “verbal permission” to proceed.

    The Commonwealth argues that [the officer's] limited authority to determine the specific time of the roadblock during the designated work week does not constitute unbridled discretion. We agree. The need to evaluate weather conditions and determine the availability of other officers provides a reasonable basis for this procedure. [The officer] complied with the restrictions, which limited any potential abuse. His supervisor determined the site of the roadblock in advance.

    Id. at 219-20, 494 S.E.2d at 146-47. ...
    Palmer v. Commonwealth, 36 Va. App. 169, 174-175, 549 S.E.2d 29, ___ (2001)
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Problem is they're not really serious about stopping DUI, and the checkpoints are only partly about catching inebriated drivers. They're more about a fishing expedition.

    If they were really serious they'd permanently suspend the driver's license of anyone with a prior, and impound their cars. Instead, you have guys with 5-6 DUIs still getting let off with a fine and a short suspension.

    They'd set up a table outside of the popular bars and check people getting into the driver's seat of a car. Of course the business owners might not like that. Since selling intoxicants is big business.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    Problem is they're not really serious about stopping DUI, and the checkpoints are only partly about catching inebriated drivers. They're more about a fishing expedition.
    .
    Many are done by gov't grants -- ie $$$ from us to cops ... that's the reason for most, just a $$$ grab

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    Problem is they're not really serious about stopping DUI, and the checkpoints are only partly about catching inebriated drivers. They're more about a fishing expedition.
    True.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    Since selling intoxicants is big business.
    God forbid.

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    I was told

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    Problem is they're not really serious about stopping DUI, and the checkpoints are only partly about catching inebriated drivers. They're more about a fishing expedition.

    If they were really serious they'd permanently suspend the driver's license of anyone with a prior, and impound their cars. Instead, you have guys with 5-6 DUIs still getting let off with a fine and a short suspension.

    They'd set up a table outside of the popular bars and check people getting into the driver's seat of a car. Of course the business owners might not like that. Since selling intoxicants is big business.
    The ABC did just that in NOVA and retaliated by convincing his the state Senator to punish the ABC by forcing them to reduce the number of Special Agents in the state by 15 positions. They claimed it was entrapment, no matter that the individuals were over the legal BAL.

    In 1994, there were 176 Law Enforcement positions. Now there are many less.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    Problem is they're not really serious about stopping DUI, and the checkpoints are only partly about catching inebriated drivers. They're more about a fishing expedition.

    If they were really serious they'd permanently suspend the driver's license of anyone with a prior, and impound their cars. Instead, you have guys with 5-6 DUIs still getting let off with a fine and a short suspension.

    .
    Don't blame the cops, blame the courts.

    I once arrested a guy for illegally carrying a concealed handgun at the courthouse, and the judge found him not guilty because the guy admitted to me that he was illegally carrying a handgun in his backpack..

    .....and I'm sure that the 1000+ glassine baggies that he also had were for watch batteries or something....
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    I once arrested a guy for illegally carrying a concealed handgun at the courthouse, and the judge found him not guilty because the guy admitted to me that he was illegally carrying a handgun in his backpack..
    The horror!

    Frankly the Judge sounds like the only decent person in that story.
    Last edited by marshaul; 04-20-2013 at 09:15 PM.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    The horror!

    Frankly the Judge sounds like the only decent person in that story.
    Yes, very nice. Personal attacks will get you far in life.
    James Reynolds

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    Laws in VA about getting stopped - road block - check point - DUI ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Yes, very nice. Personal attacks will get you far in life.
    You could have asked him to give his word as a gentleman to you and let him continue into the court with the firearm. If he committed a crime, you would have been absolved of all responsibility.

    I jest.

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    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by va_tazdad View Post
    The ABC did just that in NOVA and retaliated by convincing his the state Senator to punish the ABC by forcing them to reduce the number of Special Agents in the state by 15 positions. They claimed it was entrapment, no matter that the individuals were over the legal BAL.

    In 1994, there were 176 Law Enforcement positions. Now there are many less.
    wow a 176, i would have thought maybe 1 per 10 counties was too many. talk about over kill. what do they do all day set around and twitle their thumbs

    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Yes, very nice. Personal attacks will get you far in life.
    uh, where was the personal attack?
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by palerider116 View Post
    You could have asked him to give his word as a gentleman to you and let him continue into the court with the firearm. If he committed a crime, you would have been absolved of all responsibility.
    Oh yeah, because that's a middle ground.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Anybody ever rolled up to a road block and initiated the conversation with something like, "Good evening officer, what's the purpose of your roadblock here tonight?"



    Apparently from the cites above, they HAVE to have one... although I'm sure they won't want to tell you what it is.

    Last one I went through the guy wanted to know where I came from and where I was going. I started off with "somewhere back there" and "somewhere up there". He didn't like that very much.

    TFred

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    Regular Member Baked on Grease's Avatar
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    Re: Laws in VA about getting stopped - road block - check point - DUI ?

    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Anybody ever rolled up to a road block and initiated the conversation with something like, "Good evening officer, what's the purpose of your roadblock here tonight?"



    Apparently from the cites above, they HAVE to have one... although I'm sure they won't want to tell you what it is.

    Last one I went through the guy wanted to know where I came from and where I was going. I started off with "somewhere back there" and "somewhere up there". He didn't like that very much.

    TFred
    "What is the purpose of the stop?"

    "What is the scope of the stop?"

    "Am I being detained?"

    "Am I free to go?"

    I had someone put a challenge out at one point to go through a check point with a big ten gallon hat and a cigar in my mouth and no matter what the cop says, the response is "Go F yerself" with a big friendly smile in a jovial tone. Just to see the cops recation. I have yet to take this offer, as I don't have the luxury of surviving a false arrest without it destroying my life at the moment. Would be funny I think though.

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    A little research goes a long way.

    Quote Originally Posted by papa bear View Post
    wow a 176, i would have thought maybe 1 per 10 counties was too many. talk about over kill. what do they do all day set around and twitle their thumbs
    The Agents are required to inspect and review the books and respond to complaints of VAABC violations (like underage drinking) in addition to investigating license requests and enforcing the laws of the Commonwealth as any sworn law enforcement official.

    The arrests were upheld, but the agency suffered and has yet to recover the positions. You will be happy to learn there are far less agents now to protect against unscrupulous owners and outright criminal enterprises.

    And yes, they are involved with check point road blocks. I was stopped at one at the entrance to 95 North and asked where I was coming from. I said work, and the idiot cop asked where that was. ( I was in my uniform and wearing a gun.)

    I looked at the fool and demanded to speak to the person in charge. The officer was mad when the supervisor apologized and told me I was free to go.
    Last edited by va_tazdad; 04-21-2013 at 08:26 AM.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    Problem is they're not really serious about stopping DUI, and the checkpoints are only partly about catching inebriated drivers. They're more about a fishing expedition.

    If they were really serious they'd permanently suspend the driver's license of anyone with a prior, and impound their cars. Instead, you have guys with 5-6 DUIs still getting let off with a fine and a short suspension.

    They'd set up a table outside of the popular bars and check people getting into the driver's seat of a car. Of course the business owners might not like that. Since selling intoxicants is big business.
    There are no bars in Virginia.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    thinking back a couple of months to the talk about dashcams, I was saying to Grapeshot just last week that we're going to have to get a 2nd one mounted in our cars mounted in the top right of the windshield pointing inside the vehicle over to the driver and the window next to the driver.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scouser View Post
    thinking back a couple of months to the talk about dashcams, I was saying to Grapeshot just last week that we're going to have to get a 2nd one mounted in our cars mounted in the top right of the windshield pointing inside the vehicle over to the driver and the window next to the driver.
    Many LEOS, especially VA State Troopers, have started approaching the vehicle on the passenger side, and the 'interaction' occurs through the passenger window. I'm not sure of the exact reasoning, but I suspect keeping the officer away from the active lane of traffic is one..... and giving them a better view of the inside of the vehicle, and glove compartment when you open it up to get your registration, is another....

    As a general rule, never keep your car registration and insurance paperwork in a location with anything you do NOT want an officer to see. All my 'papers' are kept above the drivers side sunvisor... I have no need to open the glove box or the center console if/when pulled during a traffic stopr (thus they will have no ability to 'peek' in there...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blk97F150 View Post
    Many LEOS, especially VA State Troopers, have started approaching the vehicle on the passenger side, and the 'interaction' occurs through the passenger window. I'm not sure of the exact reasoning, but I suspect keeping the officer away from the active lane of traffic is one..... and giving them a better view of the inside of the vehicle, and glove compartment when you open it up to get your registration, is another....

    As a general rule, never keep your car registration and insurance paperwork in a location with anything you do NOT want an officer to see. All my 'papers' are kept above the drivers side sunvisor... I have no need to open the glove box or the center console if/when pulled during a traffic stopr (thus they will have no ability to 'peek' in there...)
    I've heard horror stories about folks who kept it in the sun visor only to encounter an officer who then made a claim that they thought that they saw something else there and used it as an excuse to toss the vehicle.

    I myself don't keep my registration or any other papers in my vehicle as I'd prefer to not leave private information available for anyone to find should they break into my vehicle. I myself keep everything that I need in my wallet. I have nothing in my wallet that would even remotely cause a problem, have the papers behind my license and can easily remove it all in one simple motion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    I've heard horror stories about folks who kept it in the sun visor only to encounter an officer who then made a claim that they thought that they saw something else there and used it as an excuse to toss the vehicle.
    Thats the first time I have heard anyone having issues with an officer 'seeing' something above the visor. I suppose its possbile though. I guess the reality is they could claim they 'saw' something no matter where the registration paperwork is located. Although in my case, the ONLY thing above my visor is a couple slips of paper held to the visor with a rubber band. If he 'mistakenly' sees something that isn't there... I think it would be fairly easy to dispute that one.

    You wallet idea is a good one. The drawback for me is that other people occasionally drive my vehicles, so the info needs to be accessible for them as well. I like that idea though, if I were the sole driver, I would consider it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blk97F150 View Post
    Thats the first time I have heard anyone having issues with an officer 'seeing' something above the visor. I suppose its possbile though. I guess the reality is they could claim they 'saw' something no matter where the registration paperwork is located. Although in my case, the ONLY thing above my visor is a couple slips of paper held to the visor with a rubber band. If he 'mistakenly' sees something that isn't there... I think it would be fairly easy to dispute that one.

    You wallet idea is a good one. The drawback for me is that other people occasionally drive my vehicles, so the info needs to be accessible for them as well. I like that idea though, if I were the sole driver, I would consider it.
    Wallet works well for me being that my wife and I are the only ones driving the car. And so we each have a copy of both of our registrations in our wallets (well, her purse). One time one of her relatives was staying with us and needed to use a vehicle, so I simply made an additional copy of the registration for him to carry in his wallet (nothing that I know of says you cannot copy your registration and I've been doing so for years to make the second copy as they only send you one).
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    Regular Member richarcm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    The Fourth Amendment only prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures. Here's some discussion of the issues and cites to important cases.

    “The validity of a checkpoint depends upon the amount of discretion remaining with the field officers operating the roadblock. Clearly, roadblocks are constitutional when conducted according to explicitly neutral plans which completely eliminate the discretion of the operating officers.” Crouch, 26 Va. App. at 218, 494 S.E.2d at 146. In Crouch, we upheld the constitutionality of a checkpoint where it was established in response to an assignment given to a state trooper to conduct a traffic checking detail at a specific location in Fauquier County some time during the work week. The trooper selected the day and time, and the trooper received “verbal permission” to proceed.

    The Commonwealth argues that [the officer's] limited authority to determine the specific time of the roadblock during the designated work week does not constitute unbridled discretion. We agree. The need to evaluate weather conditions and determine the availability of other officers provides a reasonable basis for this procedure. [The officer] complied with the restrictions, which limited any potential abuse. His supervisor determined the site of the roadblock in advance.

    Palmer v. Commonwealth, 36 Va. App. 169, 174-175, 549 S.E.2d 29, ___ (2001)
    And we all know that the courts never get anything wrong. The argument made here is in favor of collective rights. My rights are not dependent on how cops interact with everyone else or how wonderful their intentions might be who came up with the idea to stop and frisk or whether or not they used Excel or Word to create the flowchart. I do not have less of a right to be free from being stopped and searched for no reason because the cops are assaulting everyone's rights equally and doing so in random locations indiscriminately.

    The logical leap would be that as long as they are body searching all pedestrians walking down a public street and disarming all gun owners then that equal and random discretion means nobody's individual rights are being jeopardized.
    Last edited by richarcm; 04-23-2013 at 06:32 AM.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    I've heard horror stories about folks who kept it in the sun visor only to encounter an officer who then made a claim that they thought that they saw something else there and used it as an excuse to toss the vehicle.
    Yeah, and I've heard horror stores of people shot or tased as they reached for their wallet, even after informing the officer they were doing so.

    You can't be clever enough to win. If you get pulled over, the only way you're going home is at the officer's mercy.
    Last edited by marshaul; 04-23-2013 at 06:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blk97F150 View Post
    Many LEOS, especially VA State Troopers, have started approaching the vehicle on the passenger side, and the 'interaction' occurs through the passenger window. I'm not sure of the exact reasoning, but I suspect keeping the officer away from the active lane of traffic is one..... and giving them a better view of the inside of the vehicle, and glove compartment when you open it up to get your registration, is another....

    As a general rule, never keep your car registration and insurance paperwork in a location with anything you do NOT want an officer to see. All my 'papers' are kept above the drivers side sunvisor... I have no need to open the glove box or the center console if/when pulled during a traffic stopr (thus they will have no ability to 'peek' in there...)
    Good info thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blk97F150 View Post
    Many LEOS, especially VA State Troopers, have started approaching the vehicle on the passenger side, and the 'interaction' occurs through the passenger window. I'm not sure of the exact reasoning, but I suspect keeping the officer away from the active lane of traffic is one..... and giving them a better view of the inside of the vehicle, and glove compartment when you open it up to get your registration, is another....

    As a general rule, never keep your car registration and insurance paperwork in a location with anything you do NOT want an officer to see. All my 'papers' are kept above the drivers side sunvisor... I have no need to open the glove box or the center console if/when pulled during a traffic stopr (thus they will have no ability to 'peek' in there...)
    I keep these records in my trunk. They never want you to get out of the vehicle so they drop the subject -- every time.

    Cop: Insurance card?
    Me: Its in the trunk, let me get it
    Cop: stay in your vehicle.
    Me: OK

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