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    Regular Member Old Virginia Joe's Avatar
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    church carry denied

    I once made a written request of my Virginia church congregation leadership for me to be allowed to CC during services, to protect my family or anyone else near me in case of an attack on the church property. I have had my permit for many years. They turned me down, telling me there are two other people who are allowed to carry, and that "they got it covered." I have no idea if they mean CC or OC, but I have never seen anyone carry yet. I know these supposed guards are not there every single week. Besides finding another church that allows members to not be sitting ducks, does anyone have any advice on how I might be able to better deal with this going forward? Don't really want to switch membership, but am really not satisfied at all with the situation as is. I'd like to hear from saved folks who have ideas how to look at this in a Christian way, that honors God. Macho bluster and bravado ain't it. Thanks.
    VCDL, Army Vet, Virginia Native

    Hey, Libtards, it's the "Bill of Rights," not the "Bill of Needs" . . . . .

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    Stop asking permission and CC anyway? If it's actually concealed worth a damn no one will be the wiser. Granted I don't know any of your state laws, nor if the building has a "no firearms sign". If it does and you live in a state where signs carry the weight of law then you might be better to go somewhere else. If there isn't a sign, or your state doesn't carry the weight of law. Carry anyway and don't ask for a permission slip.

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    Re: church carry denied

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Virginia Joe View Post
    I once made a written request of my Virginia church congregation leadership for me to be allowed to CC during services, to protect my family or anyone else near me in case of an attack on the church property. I have had my permit for many years. They turned me down, telling me there are two other people who are allowed to carry, and that "they got it covered." I have no idea if they mean CC or OC, but I have never seen anyone carry yet. I know these supposed guards are not there every single week. Besides finding another church that allows members to not be sitting ducks, does anyone have any advice on how I might be able to better deal with this going forward? Don't really want to switch membership, but am really not satisfied at all with the situation as is. I'd like to hear from saved folks who have ideas how to look at this in a Christian way, that honors God. Macho bluster and bravado ain't it. Thanks.
    If there is no sign, and you don't mind using the Ag's opinion on Cc, for a "good and significant reason", then just do it, if you change churches. I would get a print out of his opinion, and keep it on hand.

    Few places I cc, I don't ask, IMHO, its the land owner/places of business job to post to there customers, the do's and dont's of the place. YMMV. Providing there is no sign of course.

    Here is a copy of what's on wikipedia.

    "Places of religious worship, without good and sufficient reason. The Attorney General has opined that personal protection constitutes a good and sufficient reason."

    Western Branch is a nice church, on Old Myrtle Rd, here in Suffolk, that I don't think is to far from you. Just food for thought.

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    Last edited by mpguy; 04-21-2013 at 02:45 PM.

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADobbs1989 View Post
    Stop asking permission and CC anyway? If it's actually concealed worth a damn no one will be the wiser. Granted I don't know any of your state laws, nor if the building has a "no firearms sign". If it does and you live in a state where signs carry the weight of law then you might be better to go somewhere else. If there isn't a sign, or your state doesn't carry the weight of law. Carry anyway and don't ask for a permission slip.
    This.

    Or you can point out that by denying your right to self defense that they are violating part of the basis for the whole Christianity.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    i wouldn't have asked in the first place. i have quit a church that is nation wide and popular, bec ause of their bigoted attitude and i send them a proof of the tithes i give every week

    since Jesus told us to arm ourselves, then i think he wanted us to carry them to church



    http://bible.cc/luke/22-36.htm
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
    - unknown

    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    I refer you to Nike V Converse~~"Just do it!"
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member Old Virginia Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by papa bear View Post
    i wouldn't have asked in the first place. i have quit a church that is nation wide and popular, bec ause of their bigoted attitude and i send them a proof of the tithes i give every week

    since Jesus told us to arm ourselves, then i think he wanted us to carry them to church



    http://bible.cc/luke/22-36.htm
    It is true that churches are a dime a dozen, but it is also true that a good, bold preachin church is a rare and precious thing to find anymore. Not something to be easily tossed aside. Then again, the safety of my family is no laughing matter to this head of my family. So, yes I could quit and move on, but to where? My Dad used to warn me about "cutting off my nose to spite my face." Wouldn't this be the same thing, if most all else is pretty good there?

    I had no idea they would say no, so asking was not a big deal, (I thought). Now, looking back, I might recommend others "just do it." I thought I would be welcomed as part of the volunteer defense team, but apparently I'm not.
    VCDL, Army Vet, Virginia Native

    Hey, Libtards, it's the "Bill of Rights," not the "Bill of Needs" . . . . .

    If the 2A does not apply to modern weapons, then the 1A does not apply to modern communications like the Internet! How do you like them apples!?

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    Regular Member njkennelly's Avatar
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    church carry denied

    We were all created equal, but this "Church Leader" doesn't treat all his Patrons equal? Fishy!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Virginia Joe View Post
    It is true that churches are a dime a dozen, but it is also true that a good, bold preachin church is a rare and precious thing to find anymore. Not something to be easily tossed aside. Then again, the safety of my family is no laughing matter to this head of my family. So, yes I could quit and move on, but to where? My Dad used to warn me about "cutting off my nose to spite my face." Wouldn't this be the same thing, if most all else is pretty good there?

    I had no idea they would say no, so asking was not a big deal, (I thought). Now, looking back, I might recommend others "just do it." I thought I would be welcomed as part of the volunteer defense team, but apparently I'm not.
    I don't care what your beliefs are, but personally I don't have time to associate with those who don't respect my rights. Just remember every week your going to be paying him to disrespect your rights as an American. I guess Christians might put their spiritual leaders on a higher pedestal than they would others, but since I'm not religious I can only see it through that viewpoint.

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    Regular Member McLintock's Avatar
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    church carry denied

    I agree that you should just carry. Ain't the point of CC is that no one knows your carrying? Plus they sure would be great-full if something happened and you had to use it. Plus I don't like putting my life, my family in other people's hands. Also don't like knowing people in the church carrying and not know how good of shot they are. Here in my church, we'll all get together and go shooting, and it is reassuring to know the shooters they are. So I say carry


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    church carry denied

    God will watch over you while you worship.

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    Re: church carry denied

    Quote Originally Posted by McLintock View Post
    I agree that you should just carry. Ain't the point of CC is that no one knows your carrying? Plus they sure would be great-full if something happened and you had to use it. Plus I don't like putting my life, my family in other people's hands. Also don't like knowing people in the church carrying and not know how good of shot they are. Here in my church, we'll all get together and go shooting, and it is reassuring to know the shooters they are. So I say carry


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    I agree with just carry, but if it bothers him, he should change churches first. A written statement of denial has been given to him. If he shows on accident, and it's seen, that's a kettle of fish he doesn't want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McLintock View Post
    I agree that you should just carry. Ain't the point of CC is that no one knows your carrying? Plus they sure would be great-full if something happened and you had to use it. Plus I don't like putting my life, my family in other people's hands. Also don't like knowing people in the church carrying and not know how good of shot they are. Here in my church, we'll all get together and go shooting, and it is reassuring to know the shooters they are. So I say carry


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    Do that in Ohio, get discovered in a church that has not specifically given you permission to carry, and you are a criminal.

    The point of CC is not to carry in a way that hides lawlessness. The point is to lawfully carry where such would not be prohibited while most don't know that you are carrying.

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    Regular Member Old Virginia Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonameisgood View Post
    God will watch over you while you worship.
    What? If you mean keep us safe, that's not true. Plenty of Christians have been martyred while worshipping and otherwise being faithful. He does NOT promise to keep us from harm.
    VCDL, Army Vet, Virginia Native

    Hey, Libtards, it's the "Bill of Rights," not the "Bill of Needs" . . . . .

    If the 2A does not apply to modern weapons, then the 1A does not apply to modern communications like the Internet! How do you like them apples!?

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    "Dear Pastor _____________,

    Thank you for considering my request to be armed defense of myself and loved ones during worship.

    You seem willing for me to meet God prematurely should the opportunity arise. I cannot square your desire to expose my blood with your seeming concern for my soul. Nor, can I reconcile your mission to bring inner peace and ease the travails of life for your congregation with your refusal.

    Even Christ told his disciples to sell their cloak and buy a sword. There was a time in this commonwealth when parishoners were required to bring arms to church. Apparently their pastors thought it worthwhile to protect their bodies while bringing them the Gospel.

    Your ideas are misaligned. I will now seek spiritual sustenance from a pastor who has spent time comparing and ordering his own thoughts before trying to hold himself up as a spiritual leader for others.

    Formerly yours,

    John Doe"
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member wrearick's Avatar
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    I would ask to meet with the leaders (or submit a letter) and honestly and candidly express your grievance and the conviction you feel to be prepared to defend your family and your fellow parishiners should the need arise. You believe this conviction comes from the lord, yet you also wish to respect the elders of the church and would not wish to appear disrespectful in any way. In fact, even though the laws in the commonwealth allow you to carry in church (Open or concealed - with good reason) you sought the approval of your leadership before beginning to CC during services. Part of it is that the sight of an openly carried weapon could upset some of the folks and you wanted to let the leadership know that you were a resource that they could call upon in a time of need. Right now you are conflicted between the voice you hear inside telling you to be alert against the thief that comes in the dark and wanting to be obident to the desires of the leadership. Ask them to help you understand their reasons for not wanting to have all of the protection possible for the congregation so that you may understand their point of view and help you try and find a resolution to your problem that does not involve finding another church. They may not understand how strongly you feel about this issue and may reflect upon it and alter their answer.

    Yes I know, most here would not take such a "timid" approach but if I understand your view on the issue the above sort of approach may be one you are comfortable in taking.

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    Re: church carry denied

    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Do that in Ohio, get discovered in a church that has not specifically given you permission to carry, and you are a criminal.

    The point of CC is not to carry in a way that hides lawlessness. The point is to lawfully carry where such would not be prohibited while most don't know that you are carrying.
    Don't need permission in VA, at least the way the law is written pastor wise.

    18.2-283. Carrying dangerous weapon to place of religious worship.
    If any person carry any gun, pistol, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.

    Please, if I'm mistaken point me in the direction. With that info, this is why I personally would change churches first. He's already been told no, if he gets busted, that could bring up trespassing correct?

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    Last edited by mpguy; 04-22-2013 at 12:56 AM.

  18. #18
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    When I still had my CHP I carried in church, I never felt compelled to tell anyone. I no longer go to church, and I no longer conceal. When I was a uniformed officer I did carry open in church in street clothes and nothing was said, but most people knew that I was a LEO though. But then the only time I went to church was when my mother came to visit. My opinion is if you are going to conceal, do it, and keep your mouth shut whether you have permission or not.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
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    Regular Member Red Dawg's Avatar
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    My advise is to pray on and let your prayers and concience be your guide. While true that laws for carrying in church, in VA, are with the CC'r, you have been told not to. Possible to be tresspassed? IANAL..Questions between you and your prayers.

    Boots and ankle hosters are great things sometimes...
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  20. #20
    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Virginia Joe View Post
    It is true that churches are a dime a dozen, but it is also true that a good, bold preachin church is a rare and precious thing to find anymore. Not something to be easily tossed aside. Then again, the safety of my family is no laughing matter to this head of my family. So, yes I could quit and move on, but to where? My Dad used to warn me about "cutting off my nose to spite my face." Wouldn't this be the same thing, if most all else is pretty good there?

    I had no idea they would say no, so asking was not a big deal, (I thought). Now, looking back, I might recommend others "just do it." I thought I would be welcomed as part of the volunteer defense team, but apparently I'm not.
    OLD JOE, i think you are Christian, so i will go ahead and say that if a church is not following the teachings of Jesus then they are not in the body to start with. you might believe you must stay with them to try and bring them back. my suggestion is to shake the dust off you shoes, there are lots of churches that are in the blood


    Quote Originally Posted by nonameisgood View Post
    God will watch over you while you worship.
    a Ghandi said i am not so egotistical to think that God didn't give me the smarts to run
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
    - unknown

    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

  21. #21
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Virginia Joe View Post
    ..good, bold preachin church...
    "And my flock NEED not worry that the hand of evil will find its way into this house of GOD.... for we have two members who carry every so often and who will righteously SMITE THE EVILDOERS!!!"

    Like that?
    Last edited by marshaul; 04-22-2013 at 09:45 AM.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Since you were asked and denied I wouldn't suggest you press it further. Find another church and CC.

    One thing to consider is that they (claim) have two armed members carrying you-don't-know-what, with or without training, and with unknown instructions and they (presumably) did not inform the congregation of this fact.

    That's just not being upfront. What if you're trapped in a side room and those people (whoever they are) aren't there?

    At the very least, I'd request that this information about two people carrying (what if one of them is out sick?) should be brought out in the open and their training and plans discussed.

    Good luck!

  23. #23
    Regular Member Old Virginia Joe's Avatar
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    Thanks.

    Thanks for all your advices! Unfortunately, they are "all over the board," so I'm still unsure what to do. Some say Jesus told his followers to buy a sword. True. But then when Peter actually used his sword to cut off the ear of the high priest's slave, when they came to grab and arrest Jesus, then Jesus called him down, and told him to put the sword away, and healed the man's ear. So, what good is a weapon for a Christian, if the Lord Himself condemns its use at the prime time? I wish I understood all this!
    VCDL, Army Vet, Virginia Native

    Hey, Libtards, it's the "Bill of Rights," not the "Bill of Needs" . . . . .

    If the 2A does not apply to modern weapons, then the 1A does not apply to modern communications like the Internet! How do you like them apples!?

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Virginia Joe View Post
    Thanks for all your advices! Unfortunately, they are "all over the board," so I'm still unsure what to do. Some say Jesus told his followers to buy a sword. True. But then when Peter actually used his sword to cut off the ear of the high priest's slave, when they came to grab and arrest Jesus, then Jesus called him down, and told him to put the sword away, and healed the man's ear. So, what good is a weapon for a Christian, if the Lord Himself condemns its use at the prime time? I wish I understood all this!
    I'll tell you up front I'm an agnostic (sometimes an atheist if I'm feeling ornery), so you'll probably want to take my advice with a grain of salt. But here goes (don't worry, I'm not going to advise you to abandon your faith )...

    The Bible says many things. Many of these things are or seem contradictory, and/or they make little sense on first reading. For this reason, many people have interpreted the Bible in many different ways. A given passage may be emphasized or ignored, or alternate definitions applied to reinterpret a given passage. Grammatical constructions are also subject to varying interpretation.

    In fact, there are so many different interpretations of the Bible, that it might seem like a blank slate for a sufficiently... "creative" person.

    But, this is not to say the Bible has no value. Or it has no meaning. But – as with anything, truly – meaning, and value, are assigned. That part's up to you.

    Also, it's my experience in all of life than those who claim authority deserve it least. Question those who present certainty, and who seek to instill in you their wisdom, their view.

    In short, do what feels right to you. There is no better authority in the world, if you believe you are a just and moral person.

    If I believed in God, I'd believe Jesus would have wanted to disciples to defend themselves – because that's what feels right to me, and I believe myself to be a just and moral person. And I'd tell you that your sense of right and wrong is probably the closest that God ever gets to speaking to us directly.
    Last edited by marshaul; 04-23-2013 at 10:34 PM.

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    church carry denied

    Luke 22:36 - Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    Jesus recommended swords. I could see him being just fine with a gun.

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