church carry denied

Old Virginia Joe said:

..good, bold preachin church...

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"And my flock NEED not worry that the hand of evil will find its way into this house of GOD.... for we have two members who carry every so often and who will righteously SMITE THE EVILDOERS!!!"

Like that?

Since you were asked and denied I wouldn't suggest you press it further. Find another church and CC.

One thing to consider is that they (claim) have two armed members carrying you-don't-know-what, with or without training, and with unknown instructions and they (presumably) did not inform the congregation of this fact.

That's just not being upfront. What if you're trapped in a side room and those people (whoever they are) aren't there?

At the very least, I'd request that this information about two people carrying (what if one of them is out sick?) should be brought out in the open and their training and plans discussed.

Good luck!

Thanks.

Thanks for all your advices! Unfortunately, they are "all over the board," so I'm still unsure what to do. Some say Jesus told his followers to buy a sword. True. But then when Peter actually used his sword to cut off the ear of the high priest's slave, when they came to grab and arrest Jesus, then Jesus called him down, and told him to put the sword away, and healed the man's ear. So, what good is a weapon for a Christian, if the Lord Himself condemns its use at the prime time? I wish I understood all this!

Old Virginia Joe said:

Thanks for all your advices! Unfortunately, they are "all over the board," so I'm still unsure what to do. Some say Jesus told his followers to buy a sword. True. But then when Peter actually used his sword to cut off the ear of the high priest's slave, when they came to grab and arrest Jesus, then Jesus called him down, and told him to put the sword away, and healed the man's ear. So, what good is a weapon for a Christian, if the Lord Himself condemns its use at the prime time? I wish I understood all this!

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I'll tell you up front I'm an agnostic (sometimes an atheist if I'm feeling ornery), so you'll probably want to take my advice with a grain of salt. But here goes (don't worry, I'm not going to advise you to abandon your faith :lol...

The Bible says many things. Many of these things are or seem contradictory, and/or they make little sense on first reading. For this reason, many people have interpreted the Bible in many different ways. A given passage may be emphasized or ignored, or alternate definitions applied to reinterpret a given passage. Grammatical constructions are also subject to varying interpretation.

In fact, there are so many different interpretations of the Bible, that it might seem like a blank slate for a sufficiently... "creative" person.

But, this is not to say the Bible has no value. Or it has no meaning. But – as with anything, truly – meaning, and value, are assigned. That part's up to you.

Also, it's my experience in all of life than those who claim authority deserve it least. Question those who present certainty, and who seek to instill in you their wisdom, their view.

In short, do what feels right to you. There is no better authority in the world, if you believe you are a just and moral person.

If I believed in God, I'd believe Jesus would have wanted to disciples to defend themselves – because that's what feels right to me, and I believe myself to be a just and moral person. And I'd tell you that your sense of right and wrong is probably the closest that God ever gets to speaking to us directly.

Luke 22:36 - Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Jesus recommended swords. I could see him being just fine with a gun.

Old Virginia Joe said:

Thanks for all your advices! Unfortunately, they are "all over the board," so I'm still unsure what to do. Some say Jesus told his followers to buy a sword. True. But then when Peter actually used his sword to cut off the ear of the high priest's slave, when they came to grab and arrest Jesus, then Jesus called him down, and told him to put the sword away, and healed the man's ear. So, what good is a weapon for a Christian, if the Lord Himself condemns its use at the prime time? I wish I understood all this!

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Jesus was rebuking that particular instance of the use of the sword. It was His purpose to quietly go to His trials and death as the maximally persecuted, but maximally innocent, man. To use force even to try to prevent that ran counter to that specific plan.

Jesus clearly saw the need for swords in general. He was just demonstrating that there is a time and a place for their use.

Old Virginia Joe said:

What? If you mean keep us safe, that's not true. Plenty of Christians have been martyred while worshipping and otherwise being faithful. He does NOT promise to keep us from harm.

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God helps those who help themselves. Seems pretty clear to me.

Unfortunately only LEO's are allowed to carry at my church, as my church currently meets in a middle school. There is legislation in the state government that would allow for me to carry there, until then I look forward to the day our church building is built, we have 33 beautiful acres purchased.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/agopinions/VAAGOpinionCarryInChurches.pdf

Self protection is covered, according to Virginia AG.

My church doesn't prohibit guns. We have a security detail and someone who accompanies the pastor and his wife. Our security people have guns or tazers, concealed. Some church staff carry. Some guests carry. The only open carry I've seen is from visiting police (we have a couple members who are LEO). There have been some unruly visitors before, but have been safely and quietly escorted out. We've had meth heads break in. We've had someone shoot a window one night (no one in the building). My pastor likes guns and has a few, including some inherited from his dad.

I would explain to your church that you plan on CC (or even OC if permissible by law), and if church leadership is uncomfortable with someone exercising their Constitutional rights (1st and 2nd), you will choose to find another house of worship. I know there are some really good churches in SC/NC, I'd assume you could find some in your neck of the woods, even if you have to drive a little bit further. Or choose a church that broadcasts sermons online and tithes online.

They might say, "You'd rather choose a gun over God?" or something similar, and you can respond in kind, "You'd rather lose a member denying their God-given freedom?" Church should be about love, grace, and forgiveness. Not about control and fear.

eye95 said:

Jesus was rebuking that particular instance of the use of the sword. It was His purpose to quietly go to His trials and death as the maximally persecuted, but maximally innocent, man. To use force even to try to prevent that ran counter to that specific plan.

Jesus clearly saw the need for swords in general. He was just demonstrating that there is a time and a place for their use.

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Amen, you beat me to it.

-MH

Next time do not ask.
Since you are going to CC no one would've known anyway.
I CC at my church. I've never discussed it with anyone there but I know there are people who are aware or suspect that I am carrying.


==========================================
NRA Certified Instructor & Range Safety Officer
Teaching classes in Lorton VA & Springfield VA
PM me if you need a class, RSO or safety briefing

marshaul said:

"And my flock NEED not worry that the hand of evil will find its way into this house of GOD.... for we have two members who carry every so often and who will righteously SMITE THE EVILDOERS!!!"

Like that?

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Add at the end..."If they happen to be here at that time!"

Steeler-gal said:

Next time do not ask.
Since you are going to CC no one would've known anyway.
I CC at my church. I've never discussed it with anyone there but I know there are people who are aware or suspect that I am carrying. ...

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If the church has said they won't allow carry (or, if you live in Ohio, if they haven't specifically stated that you may carry), I strongly recommend that this advice NOT be followed. In many States, including Ohio, such carry would be a violation of the law.

I am very sympathetic to this problem. It is difficult to find a good church. I would be very unhappy if I had to leave mine.

Reading through all the posts, only a very few really get it, and that's not something I say with any haughtiness or conceit, it's just that this is a very specific situation and only someone who has been in a similar circumstance will really understand how important and difficult it can be.

I attend a large church, and I've seen a LOT of people come and go, for all sorts of reasons. Usually, once a person decides to go, the reason is inconsequential, trivial even - more of an excuse at that point, which makes trying to address the stated reason for leaving quite pointless in most situations.

My opinion here.

You need to decide up front if this is an issue that is important enough for you to leave over. That's the critical piece of information that only you and your family can decide.

Once you've made that decision, I think I would arrange a meeting with the pastor, and have a nice little chat. I would tell the pastor that carrying a firearm for self-defense is critically important to you and your family. I would tell the pastor that you intend to carry a firearm to church, unless the pastor is willing to inform you as the legal representative of the property owner of the church building that you are forbidden to do so. If the pastor is still stuck on no carry for you, and, if you have decided that the issue is worth leaving over, you need to inform the pastor that you will be seeking a new place of worship. [Just me for this: I think I would stop tithing immediately after informing the pastor you plan to leave, and start saving it up until I found my new church... be interesting to see if the pastor will blink about the loss of income... sadly that is the motive for some pastors...]

If you have decided that the issue is not worth leaving over, then you'll have to accept not carrying, finish the meeting, and never bring it up again.

Again, all JMHO...

I hope you can reach a satisfactory solution.

TFred

My pastor is 100% ok with it, he doesn't realize that we can't and has mentioned in the past that he is certain that there are some of us that do and doesn't think it's a big deal.

I guess the question is where is your conviction? Church Preference or Constitutional Rights?

In my state, it is not a unlawful to carry; however, if they ask you to leave, you can get nailed for trespassing (possibly). Don't know your state law; but this is ours.

Several years ago, I had a conversation with an associate pastor who figured out I CCW...he asked me to stop....I deferred to the senior pastor to make the call; he could ask me to not carry....he didn't care, but didn't issue a blanket statement for everyone to carry; associate pastor is no longer there.

YMMV!

Simple solution, don't go to church

I'll often go to the zoo when people are in church to evade any crowds, it's a much better investment of time.

moonie said:

Unfortunately only LEO's are allowed to carry at my church, as my church currently meets in a middle school. There is legislation in the state government that would allow for me to carry there, until then I look forward to the day our church building is built, we have 33 beautiful acres purchased.

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Do you have state laws that say you can't carry in schools or something? The GFSZ law says that anyone who holds a permit to carry a weapon that was issued in the same state the school resides is allowed to carry on school grounds.

ADobbs1989 said:

Do you have state laws that say you can't carry in schools or something? The GFSZ law says that anyone who holds a permit to carry a weapon that was issued in the same state the school resides is allowed to carry on school grounds.

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Yes

Wow this site is slow to respond to a click, slow loading pages, glitchy.. Almost forgot what I was going to post. oh, I don't go to church, but I might if they allowed open carry. When I did go to a church or try out a few to see if it was for me, I stopped the moment I heard them bashing gay, or lesbain, or similar kinds of discrimnation. Uasally it was just a short blurb, but it was enough for me to see what kind of people these were.

Closest I come to church nowadays, is watch the latest Chuck Baldwin on Youtube,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_q3KvSpn0k&list=UU_WXNvMaVban-C8DRq9L4fw&index=6

He seems to be pro gun anyway, and we have similar views on government tyranny. He bashes those other churches quite a bit.