the video from the aldis attempted robbery

aldi video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqkqzsIjujI&feature=plcp

Am I missing something or did the perp have a shortened long gun stuffed almost all the way up his sleeve with the trigger way behind his hand?

I don't think that I would have drawn in this situation. I would have had my hand on the butt, however I think that as long as the perp was leaving and had not hurt anyone, and I was behind cover, I would have just been a good witness. I was not there, it is easy to sit in my armchair, puff my chest out and say I would have done it different, but who knows. I am just glad that all turned out good. Did he get his pistol back yet?

Nightmare said:

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/202753111.html

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Late on Monday April 22, 2013 the handgun was returned. Friday April 19, the property clerk had refused to return the gun even when presented with a judge's order to do so. Justice comes slow in the city of Milwaukee, unless you are a criminal with a good attorney.

Kc.38 said:

I don't think that I would have drawn in this situation. I would have had my hand on the butt, however I think that as long as the perp was leaving and had not hurt anyone, and I was behind cover, I would have just been a good witness. I was not there, it is easy to sit in my armchair, puff my chest out and say I would have done it different, but who knows. I am just glad that all turned out good. Did he get his pistol back yet?

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Obviously a personal decision to make.

Nazir has said the man was getting increasingly agitated. There's no guarantee he was concluded with his "business" at that time just because he was walking away.

How guilty would you have felt had another patron - or even a cop - walked into the store as the criminal was exiting and he shot them, all while you had your hand resting on the means to stop him?

I'm not saying you're wrong in how you feel. I'm just saying I can understand Nazir's decision to engage. As you said, it's easy to armchair quarterback.

NoTolerance said:

How guilty would you have felt had another patron - or even a cop - walked into the store as the criminal was exiting and he shot them, all while you had your hand resting on the means to stop him?

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Very true, however lead flying around other shoppers that you know are already there is not a safe situation either. I think that I would feel worse had I engaged the perp and someone standing near me was shot. But as was mentioned, there is a lot going on there that does NOT show on the video. However I do not think that it can be viewed by a "carrier" without the question being asked, "what would I do"?

Kc.38 said:

Very true, however lead flying around other shoppers that you know are already there is not a safe situation either. I think that I would feel worse had I engaged the perp and someone standing near me was shot. But as was mentioned, there is a lot going on there that does NOT show on the video. However I do not think that it can be viewed by a "carrier" without the question being asked, "what would I do"?

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Nazir saw someone in the way, so he nodded at him and the customer moved so Nazir was free to engage.

get away driver got probation ...

good to know! always volunteer to be the get away driver.

protias said:

Nazir saw someone in the way, so he nodded at him and the customer moved so Nazir was free to engage.

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Had the perp returned fire, Nazir would have drawn that fire in the direction of other shoppers.

My only critisism is HE MISSED!!

mark-in-texas said:

My only critisism is HE MISSED!!

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IIRC he had two "hits" or "nicks". Have to ask him to be sure.

My biggest take away from this video and DGU, was to watch how EVERYONE froze like sheep. Nobody even went for any concealment or cover... just froze, like lemmings. The bad guy could have starting easily killing all the witnesses - this guy did the right thing. His only negative - should've had one in the chamber!

Some good points made here, before engaging in a defensive situation, you should be aware of your background, as well as what is more obvious and discernible, the background of the bad guy(s).

Knowledge and information about the threat is desirable. In most military situations, it is reasonable to assume, the enemy has loaded and functional weapons and is planning to use them against you.

In a civilian defense situation, the bad guys weaponry and willingness to engage may not be known. The unpredictability of the criminal is known, often they have taken alcohol or drugs, and may very well have mental issues. They may not be prepared for armed resistance, and could just start shooting wildly.

Kc.38 said:

I think that I would feel worse had I engaged the perp and someone standing near me was shot.

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But like most criminals, once he was opposed he fled. This one even dropped the money.

davidmcbeth said:

get away driver got probation ...

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He also got time served, which I think is over a year because he couldn't make bail.

rcawdor57 said:

IIRC he had two "hits" or "nicks". Have to ask him to be sure.

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+1 IIRC the thug was hit in the head & leg.

anmut said:

watch how EVERYONE froze like sheep. Nobody even went for any concealment or cover...

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Nazir first got his wife away from the area. Some of the other people did eventually move away from the cashier, but way too slowly & not far enough.

And yes, he had the (empty) shotgun stuffed up his sleeve. If he'd had it loaded, to fire he'd have to reach his other hand in his coat, maybe down the sleeve. And think of the damage it would have done to his clothing & maybe his arm. :lol:

Kc.38 said:

Had the perp returned fire, Nazir would have drawn that fire in the direction of other shoppers.

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So, is what you're saying is that you would have waited until the perp fired upon you before engaging him?
At that point it is already too late!

When someone points a firearm at you in during the commission of an armed robbery, you shoot to stop the threat, you continue shooting until the threat is stopped.
If you hesitate by wondering if they will or will not shoot, or wonder if their gun is actually loaded, you will most likely be shot, and possibly die along with others.

Lets look at this Elkins clown for a clue, the animal shot a baby because mom didn't have any money. The myth that armed robbers will take you money and simply leave is total and complete bullspit! They escalated the event just by coming armed, they further escalated the event by pointing a firearm at employees and patrons. You shoot the first open chance that you get to stop that threat.

Nutczak said:

So, is what you're saying is that you would have waited until the perp fired upon you before engaging him?
At that point it is already too late!

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From what I see in the video the perp never pointer his gun at Nazir. It also appears that there were at least 3 other shoppers within 5 ft. of Nazir. Even though I will admit that I have never been in a situation like this I think that we can not just have tunnel vision and only see the BG or people in his area, but we need to take in the whole area around ourselves as well. Would Nazir still have been cleared of any wrong doing if the BG had returned fire and killed one or more shoppers? Nazir had to come out from cover to get a clear shot at the robber so to me it appears that he was not in as much danger at that time as the other shoppers. He also was the only shopper that showed ANY situational awareness and headed for cover right away. In my opinion there were shoppers and clerks in danger there, but Nazir was not one of them and that is why I take my hat off to him for risking his life to protect those that chose not to protect themselves.

Kc.38 said:

From what I see in the video the perp never pointer his gun at Nazir...
Nazir had to come out from cover to get a clear shot at the robber so to me it appears that he was not in as much danger at that time as the other shoppers.

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Doesn't matter. The same statute which protects acts in self-defense [939.48] also protects acts in defense of others, if the actor reasonably believed that the other was allowed to act in his/her own defense.

http://docs.legis.wi.gov/statutes/statutes/939/III/48

939.48(4) said:

A person is privileged to defend a 3rd person from real or apparent unlawful interference by another under the same conditions and by the same means as those under and by which the person is privileged to defend himself or herself from real or apparent unlawful interference, provided that the person reasonably believes that the facts are such that the 3rd person would be privileged to act in self-defense and that the person's intervention is necessary for the protection of the 3rd person.

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Kc.38 said:

Would Nazir still have been cleared of any wrongdoing if the BG had returned fire and killed one or more shoppers?

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The law says yes, in most cases. There are some exceptions, but in reading the descriptions I think there are only 3 which might be tried, & those are a stretch.

939.48(3) said:

The privilege of self-defense extends not only to the intentional infliction of harm upon a real or apparent wrongdoer, but also to the unintended infliction of harm upon a 3rd person,
except
that if the unintended infliction of harm amounts to the crime of first-degree or 2nd-degree reckless homicide, homicide by negligent handling of dangerous weapon, explosives or fire, first-degree or 2nd-degree reckless injury or injury by negligent handling of dangerous weapon, explosives or fire, the actor is liable for whichever one of those crimes is committed.

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940.02 First-degree reckless homicide nope
"recklessly causes the death of another human being under circumstances which show utter disregard for human life"
940.06 Second-degree reckless homicide might be tried
"recklessly causes the death of another human being"
940.08 Homicide by negligent handling of dangerous weapon nope
"causes the death of another human being by the negligent operation or handling of a dangerous weapon"
940.23 Reckless injury
first-degree "recklessly causes great bodily harm to another human being under circumstances which show utter disregard for human life" nope
2nd-degree "recklessly causes great bodily harm to another human being" (or fetus) might be tried
940.24 injury by negligent handling of dangerous weapon might be tried
"whoever causes bodily harm to another by the negligent operation or handling of a dangerous weapon"



Most likely, the criminal would be charged with the additional crime of felony murder & have an extra 15 years on his sentence.

940.03 said:

Felony murder. Whoever causes the death of another human being while committing or attempting to commit ... [a list of crimes, including] 943.10 (2) [burglary while armed] ... may be imprisoned for not more than 15 years in excess of the maximum term of imprisonment provided by law for that crime or attempt.

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The annotations under that statute include these:

State v. Oimen said:

To prove that the defendant caused the death, the state need only prove that the defendant's conduct was a substantial factor... A defendant may be convicted if another person, including an intended felony victim, fires the fatal shot.

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State v. Below said:

An actor causes death if his or her conduct is a substantial factor in bringing about that result.
A substantial factor need not be the sole cause of death for one to be held legally culpable.

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-

anmut said:

His only negative - should've had one in the chamber!

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Shoulda coulda woulda....

And he shoulda had ____________ cal.
And he shoulda had a ____________ firearm.
And he shoulda had a ____________ holster.
And he should used the ____________ stance.
And he shoulda had full body armor by ____________.
And he shoulda had his camera running.
And he shoulda never shopped at Aldis.
And he never shoulda moved to Milwaukee.
And he never shoulda been born....

:monkey

And if he was a level 19 practitioner of Gunkata Nazir could have just imploded the bad guy's head. With his mind.

HandyHamlet said:

Shoulda coulda woulda....

And he shoulda had ____________ cal.
And he shoulda had a ____________ firearm.
And he shoulda had a ____________ holster.
And he should used the ____________ stance.
And he shoulda had full body armor by ____________.
And he shoulda had his camera running.
And he shoulda never shopped at Aldis.
And he never shoulda moved to Milwaukee.
And he never shoulda been born....

:monkey

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ALL of that is subjective... having one in the chamber - is fact. Carry locked and cocked or leave your pistol at home, that's my view.