marshaul
Campaign Veteran
I sent what I can spare using Bill Pay. 10/18 is the delivery date, supposedly.
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The Tale of Henrico - Chapter 2 in a Ferry Tale - Arrested for following the law
- Thread starter Grapeshot
- Start date
Good luck. Please let us know what you come up with, if it's ok to do so.
2a4all
Regular Member
I've been following this thread (closely, I thought), and this is the first time I've seen this bit of specificity about the defendant's actions.
I have to say, if I were to see that same action conducted by anyone (in or out of a motor vehicle) in public, I would have the same concerns as the bus driver, whether the individual saw me or not. I'd seriously think about calling the cops, too.
What firearm safety course teaches that if you're going to load your gun while in your car, be sure to point it up (a safe direction) while you insert the magazine? Is that technique supposed to assure any bystanders that you mean no harm? And the defendant's reason for doing this was what, again?
Rusty Young Man
Regular Member
@The Central Committee: Just for clarification, is the bolded part above what Scouser DID, or what the sniveling cowardly, unlicensed, self-contradicting (lying), vengeful bus/van driver SAYS he did?
@2a4all: had your post come from someone newer to OCDO or whose posts I hadn't read before, I would have assumed you were coming onto this thread with the sole purpose of stirring up some troll stew by attacking a man who was only recently knocked down. Not cool.
On the same note, I agree that loading and unloading must be done as discreetly as possible (if I must do so in a vehicle, I point the muzzle at the floor), but sometimes a hoplophobe is just looking to cast his/her fears on an object and project his/her violent desires on someone else (like a LAC).
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Pretty much everybody concerned (Scouser and User) agree that it may not have been the most elegant decision. However, that does not mean it was dangerous, threatening, or designed/intended to induce fear or apprehension in the mind of another. That someone besides yourself also expressed concern as to "what might happen" still does not get us to - or at least should not get us to - inducing fear. (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/induce "induce" is a transitive verb. Sadly, the law seems to completely ignore that fact. You also appear to be ignoring it.)
stay safe.
speed41ae
Regular Member
He was on his way to an open carry dinner and was moving his handgun from the glove box to a holster that was in a compartment in the middle of his dash so that it would be ready to put on when he got to his destination.
Coming to 2a's defense (which he really doesn't need) Rusty, he has a valid point although I agree, it probably is a bad time to get into it.
However, Grahams action is far more complicated than it appears. The explanation is the readers digest version, shortened for whatever reason.
He wasn't loading it and in fact, the magazine was already in the mag well. He didn't point it up to load it, the muzzle was up for seconds on it's way to the holster.
While there is disagreement about where the handgun was held in relation to the driver's body and how much could be seen by the driver of the van behind him (see photo of van type below), that is what happened.
stay safe.
Yep!
As to where it was held....it was nearly one fluid motion. Hard to say where it was at X nanosecond.
It seems to be generally agreed on by everyone that it was only visible for 2-3 seconds.
I just reviewed my video and the entire action of removing it from the glove box to inserting it into the holster took about 7 seconds.
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2a4all
Regular Member
One's reaction to an observed action doesn't depend on the dictionary classification of a verb.
ETA: Suppose that Scouser had been observed by a cop. It's not much of a stretch to see his/her reaction as drawing their weapon in response to a credible threat.
Cop: "Freeze!"
Scouser: "What?", turning his head.
Cop: "Bang!".
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Rusty Young Man
Regular Member
So did the (unlicensed, etc.) bus driver have X-ray vision to look through the roof of a (sedan? Coupe? VW bug?) car that naturally rides LOWER than that tin box?/sarcasm
Also Skid, I have the vague notion you didn't choose that bus photo merely for the depiction of the bus. Thank you for a little humor amidst this dark matter.
@peter nap: so would it be safe to say Graham may have chosen to go upwards since it is the easier (from driver's side, since the steering wheel gets in the way) path of movement to get the gun into the holster?
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Going any direction but up would have involved juggling the gun in his lap which obviously is a bad idea, or raising it high Gangsta style to lock the magazine in place, then down and out to the holster.
And 2a4all....judgement calls without knowing the facts is beneath you.
paramedic70002
Regular Member
I sympathise with Scouser, and I think he got railroaded, although I can see the opposing viewpoint, especially if you consider the viewpoint from folks who aren't into guns or are hoplophobes.
The point about the driver being able to see the gun, see the "glaring," and see the mouthed "OK" is very troubling. Does that "school bus" have a camera? Can new evidence be introduced on this appeal?
Not to "kick a man when he's down" but just from an educational point of view, I hope Scouser now knows that unneccessary gun handling can also contribute to negligent discharges. Legal or not, don't rearrange your gun while driving.
I've seen that more than one Virginia Judge holds a dim view of any gun handling that is questionable, especially if it involves children. I myself have skirted that very issue in court when I was (I thought discreetly) hand carrying a handgun from my car to my house, spoke to the neighbor's kid about his dog that had just pooped in my yard, and he told his dad. Even though I was eventually exonerated, I still received a stern and uncomfortable lecture from the bench. I made a poor choice in speaking to the child while holding a gun and I'm lucky I was not convicted.
If this case is upheld on appeal, will that set a new case law standard in Virginia for brandishing?
On another topic, I wonder how much the brandishing/fear issue feeds into the antigun argument that they "have a right to not be in fear" from gun owners.
The point about the driver being able to see the gun, see the "glaring," and see the mouthed "OK" is very troubling. Does that "school bus" have a camera? Can new evidence be introduced on this appeal?
Not to "kick a man when he's down" but just from an educational point of view, I hope Scouser now knows that unneccessary gun handling can also contribute to negligent discharges. Legal or not, don't rearrange your gun while driving.
I've seen that more than one Virginia Judge holds a dim view of any gun handling that is questionable, especially if it involves children. I myself have skirted that very issue in court when I was (I thought discreetly) hand carrying a handgun from my car to my house, spoke to the neighbor's kid about his dog that had just pooped in my yard, and he told his dad. Even though I was eventually exonerated, I still received a stern and uncomfortable lecture from the bench. I made a poor choice in speaking to the child while holding a gun and I'm lucky I was not convicted.
If this case is upheld on appeal, will that set a new case law standard in Virginia for brandishing?
On another topic, I wonder how much the brandishing/fear issue feeds into the antigun argument that they "have a right to not be in fear" from gun owners.
2a4all
Regular Member
Haven't made any judgments yet. As I said in my earlier post, I thought I had the whole story, but User's description of events surprised me. My questions are based on those (heretofore unknown to me) facts. I realize that they are pretty much what the bus driver saw (or thinks he saw), but it's his reaction to his observation that is the issue. And as I stated, if I had seen what has been stated here, I would be concerned. The level of concern might be tempered (or enhanced) by the context of the situation, but concerned nevertheless.
The bus driver said he was afraid, and we can't know anything more about his feelings than what he says. I don't believe for a minute that Graham intended harm, but harm seems to have been done. The driver claims "He frightened me.". Graham's response can only be "I didn't mean to.", not "No, I didn't.", and may not be enough.
It has to be a reasonable fear.
Reasonable is open to interpretation.
I have difficulty seeing how you can get reasonable from this
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It has to be a reasonable fear.
Reasonable is open to interpretation.
I have difficulty seeing how you can get reasonable from this
It's weird. In just an hour a jury found him guilty. It seems like there was very little disagreement, and little doubt.
2a4all
Regular Member
It has to be a reasonable fear.
Reasonable is open to interpretation.
I have difficulty seeing how you can get reasonable from this
What are you trying to illustrate here? Is the upper compartment where the gun was initially, and the open glove box it's destination? And the path (of visibility) would be?
The holster was in the upper compartment, the gun in the glove box. He took it out of the glove box and put it in the holster.
It was visible to the driver for 3 seconds according to the commonwealth.
This is a frame grab from a video I made in his car and that's his arm. The entire transfer took 7 seconds, 3 where Goodwin could see it and the frame you see represents a second of the visible part.
This
This has all been explained in great detail here, by User which you quoted earlier.
There was no waving or anything out of line.
The driver saw it while it was being handled on it's way to the holster.
He also described it as about a foot long!
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Lord Sega
Regular Member
Donation sent from north Oregon coast.
You'll get'em on the appeal.
You'll get'em on the appeal.