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Thread: Ypsilanti Township posted another sign

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    Ypsilanti Township posted another sign

    Last year I mentioned that Ypsilanti Township posted a "firearms prohibited" sign at Hewen's Creek Park. I emailed the head of their parks/recreation department, but got no response. Yesterday I went to North Hydro Park, and I found the same exact sign posted there too:



    I went to their web site and sent another message, likely to be ignored again...
    Last edited by kubel; 04-28-2013 at 03:46 PM.

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    says "hunting and firearms" not "hunting or firearms" ..

    Have marker, use marker

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    BBQ anyone?
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Ypsilanti Township posted another sign

    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    BBQ anyone?
    Sure
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Ypsilanti Township posted another sign

    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    BBQ anyone?
    You planning it?
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Here's the other sign:



    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    says "hunting and firearms" not "hunting or firearms" ..
    But by that logic, does that mean I can either camp or make ground fires, as long as I don't do both? Or how about "no swimming OR wading", but what if I swim AND wade. :P
    Last edited by kubel; 04-28-2013 at 07:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kubel View Post
    Here's the other sign:





    But by that logic, does that mean I can either camp or make ground fires, as long as I don't do both? Or how about "no swimming OR wading", but what if I swim AND wade. :P
    I guess so .. the word "and" means both, not either. Otherwise the phrase "he's short and tall" makes sense, yes?

    Happy camping (or fire making if you are inclined)

    Plus they are using the "&" incorrectly ... and english nightmare ... just tear the signs down
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 04-28-2013 at 07:58 PM.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    You planning it?
    I work 65 hours a week and am balls deep in trying to rebuild my daily driver's transmission in my little spare time. Also, the last event I tried to plan, at the height of the anti gun media storm no less, had less than 6 people who wanted to come out, and this caused me to greatly lose faith in the people of this forum and their desire to do much of anything meaningful for gun rights beyond carrying, if even that (apart from the sparse and scattered regulars) and if there is a repeat of the last potential turn out, I can't see a reason why the few hardliners here in this region would give enough of a crap to drive from a long ways just to have a picnic just to spite the sign when no one else gives a damn.

    So with that being my outlook and my time being so sparse, I'm not going to put too much effort into it, and definitely won't be trying to arrange a bit elaborate event. If you or someone else would like to plan an event, I will do my very best to be there. I am merely throwing the idea out there in the hopes that someone else will run with it and others will follow.
    Last edited by Michigander; 04-28-2013 at 10:21 PM.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: Ypsilanti Township posted another sign

    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    I work 65 hours a week and am balls deep in trying to rebuild my daily driver's transmission in my little spare time. Also, the last event I tried to plan, at the height of the anti gun media storm no less, had less than 6 people who wanted to come out, and this caused me to greatly lose faith in the people of this forum and their desire to do much of anything meaningful for gun rights beyond carrying, if even that (apart from the sparse and scattered regulars) and if there is a repeat of the last potential turn out, I can't see a reason why the few hardliners here in this region would give enough of a crap to drive from a long ways just to have a picnic just to spite the sign when no one else gives a damn.

    So with that being my outlook and my time being so sparse, I'm not going to put too much effort into it, and definitely won't be trying to arrange a bit elaborate event. If you or someone else would like to plan an event, I will do my very best to be there. I am merely throwing the idea out there in the hopes that someone else will run with it and others will follow.
    He (Q) always answers that way. Why? So he can chime in with all that he does....
    Not to take away from what he does - good on him - but his people skills are shall we say a bit lacking in my opinion. I suggest you contact John Roshek. He plans it - I will fund with $250 - that should make for a nice spread. Show up eat , drink & be merry. What's not to love.
    info@citizensleaguesd.com
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 04-29-2013 at 12:12 AM.
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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Ypsilanti Township posted another sign

    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    He (Q) always answers that way. Why? So he can chime in with all that he does....
    No. Not really. I was merely asking if he was planning to do it. If so, I'd plan to attend it.

    It's that simple really...

    PS. I hope John does set it up, I'll see you guys there.

    Has anyone heard from John lately? Is all well with him?
    Last edited by TheQ; 04-29-2013 at 08:07 AM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Depends on your definition of 'lately'...

    Saw him a few months ago, all was well at that time.

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    if you (kubel) build the fire, i will come. i will bring some treats as well. does their sign have an unlawful ordinance backing it up?
    Last edited by smellslikemichigan; 04-29-2013 at 10:06 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    I work 65 hours a week and am balls deep in trying to rebuild my daily driver's transmission in my little spare time. Also, the last event I tried to plan, at the height of the anti gun media storm no less, had less than 6 people who wanted to come out, and this caused me to greatly lose faith in the people of this forum and their desire to do much of anything meaningful for gun rights beyond carrying, if even that (apart from the sparse and scattered regulars) and if there is a repeat of the last potential turn out, I can't see a reason why the few hardliners here in this region would give enough of a crap to drive from a long ways just to have a picnic just to spite the sign when no one else gives a damn.

    So with that being my outlook and my time being so sparse, I'm not going to put too much effort into it, and definitely won't be trying to arrange a bit elaborate event. If you or someone else would like to plan an event, I will do my very best to be there. I am merely throwing the idea out there in the hopes that someone else will run with it and others will follow.
    I have also noted this....people will say "I'll do anything!" and then get suggestions to do a very minimal amount (even something that his no narrow timeline or effort), and they're gone. At least people will still show up at the legislative hearings so that's a plus. And most people think that that is all that is effective or is the most that they are willing to do.

    Go figure, most people are lazy. Its like a gov't official who I filed a complaint with saying "You're the only person who complained about this violation of the law" to which I say "So? Its a violation ain't it? I'm not going away."

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    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    He (Q) always answers that way. Why? So he can chime in with all that he does....
    Not to take away from what he does - good on him - but his people skills are shall we say a bit lacking in my opinion. I suggest you contact John Roshek. He plans it - I will fund with $250 - that should make for a nice spread. Show up eat , drink & be merry. What's not to love.
    info@citizensleaguesd.com
    I would be interested in going and carpooling from Grand Rapids area, Time and interest permitting.
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Ypsilanti Township posted another sign

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle View Post
    Depends on your definition of 'lately'...

    Saw him a few months ago, all was well at that time.
    Glad to hear. Last I'd heard of him was at a downriver picnic last year.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    I'm 20 minutes from Ypsi, if this is actually happening I'll definitely be there! Guns and BBQ's, my two favorite things.
    Molon Labe

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    Regular Member MI_XD's Avatar
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    I didn't find any references in the code that would prohibit carrying in the parks, but this one I am not sure if it would be something pre-empted by the state.. from Municode:

    Sec. 42-223. - Possession or control of firearm while intoxicated or under influence of drugs.

    It shall be unlawful for any person within the township while under the influence of an alcoholic liquor or any controlled substance to carry, have in possession or control or use in any manner or discharge any firearm.
    (Code 1975, § 13˝-154)
    State law reference— Similar provisions, MCL 750.237, MSA 28.434.


    But their DISCHARGE ordinance looks like it is in good shape.

    Sec. 42-225. - Discharge of firearm.
    (a)Discharge of firearm. It shall be unlawful for any person to discharge a firearm within 150 yards of an occupied building, dwelling, house, residence or cabin, or any barn or other building used in connection with a farm operation.

    (b)Exception. The following are exceptions to subsection (a):

    (1)Law enforcement officers in the performance of their duties.

    (2)A person acting in lawful self defense or lawful defense of others.


    MI_XD

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    Regular Member Second Reality's Avatar
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    Ypsilanti is a bit of a drive for me, but if this event does happen I would love to attend. I've been up to Ypsilanti before, and im always up for some good outdoors.

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    Contacts:

    Director of Park and Public saftey
    Mike Radzik
    734-544-3730

    General Counsel
    Doug Winters
    734-481-1120

    Called both this morning and informed them of the illegality of their no firearms sign. Was told they are looking into it............. Maybe more people should call to stoke the fire a little bit. The squeaky wheel gets the grease and I think we should make the wheel as squeaky as we can

    1-2 phone calls them may tend to ignore but if we can get 25+ calls into them they will hopefully address the issue in a more timely manner. If for no other reason to stop getting all the calls.

    PS if we are having a picnic, count me in
    "God created man, Sam Colt made them equal."

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kubel View Post
    Here's the other sign:





    But by that logic, does that mean I can either camp or make ground fires, as long as I don't do both? Or how about "no swimming OR wading", but what if I swim AND wade. :P
    Here, I believe is what their code actually says, and is what is specifically needs to be addressed...I have no skin in this fight except that I am coming to MI in a few weeks and always bring my side arm with me and may well be out and about in local community and city parks...we have these same issues with parks in WA. In spite of our state pre-emption law, it still take time and persistence to get them changed...

    Sec. 46-61. - Possession and use of firearms; dangerous weapons; fireworks.

    It shall be unlawful for any person to:

    (1)

    Possess within park property, fire or discharge, or cause to be fired or discharged across, in or into any portion of the park, any gun or firearm, spear, bow and arrow, crossbow, sling shot, air or gas weapon, or any other dangerous weapon or projectile, except for purposes designated by the board in areas and at times designated by the board;

    (2)

    Possess, set off or attempt to set off or ignite any firecracker, fireworks, smoke bombs, rockets, black powder guns or other pyrotechnics without authorization from the director; or

    (3)

    Possess or carry in any park, any air gun, paint gun, bow and arrow, or any illegal weapon.


    Any unauthorized or illegal weapon within a park shall be subject to seizure by a law enforcement officer


    http://library.municode.com/index.aspx?clientId=11741

    It doesn't seem to actually say that possession is a crime of any sort, and they are leaving themselves an out with the last sentence..."subject to seizure" if it is unauthorized or illegal...by a LEO. They would lose, but it would be a serious inconvenience....the cop who gets the call is the guy you have to convince.
    Last edited by jt59; 05-05-2013 at 09:38 AM.
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    Regular Member MI_XD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jt59 View Post
    Here, I believe is what their code actually says, and is what is specifically needs to be addressed...I have no skin in this fight except that I am coming to MI in a few weeks and always bring my side arm with me and may well be out and about in local community and city parks...we have these same issues with parks in WA. In spite of our state pre-emption law, it still take time and persistence to get them changed...

    Sec. 46-61. - Possession and use of firearms; dangerous weapons; fireworks.

    It shall be unlawful for any person to:

    (1)

    Possess within park property, fire or discharge, or cause to be fired or discharged across, in or into any portion of the park, any gun or firearm, spear, bow and arrow, crossbow, sling shot, air or gas weapon, or any other dangerous weapon or projectile, except for purposes designated by the board in areas and at times designated by the board;

    (2)

    Possess, set off or attempt to set off or ignite any firecracker, fireworks, smoke bombs, rockets, black powder guns or other pyrotechnics without authorization from the director; or

    (3)

    Possess or carry in any park, any air gun, paint gun, bow and arrow, or any illegal weapon.


    Any unauthorized or illegal weapon within a park shall be subject to seizure by a law enforcement officer


    http://library.municode.com/index.aspx?clientId=11741

    It doesn't seem to actually say that possession is a crime of any sort, and they are leaving themselves an out with the last sentence..."subject to seizure" if it is unauthorized or illegal...by a LEO. They would lose, but it would be a serious inconvenience....the cop who gets the call is the guy you have to convince.

    Yeah, I missed that one! Here is another that needs to be corrected. Although it may not be for the same park location.

    Sec. 42-209. - Firearms.

    It shall be unlawful for any person to transport, carry, or possess a firearm while in or upon the waters of Ford Lake, the islands within Ford Lake, or any Township land abutting Ford Lake, unless said person is a law enforcement officer engaged in performing his or her lawful duties.

    (Ord. No. 96-149, 4-16-96)

    MI_XD

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    What is MI's State level pre-emption?

    Quote Originally Posted by MI_XD View Post
    Yeah, I missed that one! Here is another that needs to be corrected. Although it may not be for the same park location.

    Sec. 42-209. - Firearms.

    It shall be unlawful for any person to transport, carry, or possess a firearm while in or upon the waters of Ford Lake, the islands within Ford Lake, or any Township land abutting Ford Lake, unless said person is a law enforcement officer engaged in performing his or her lawful duties.

    (Ord. No. 96-149, 4-16-96)

    MI_XD
    I couldn't find anything in the MI sticky's, do you guys have an equivalent to WA?

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.290


    State preemption.


    The state of Washington hereby fully occupies and preempts the entire field of firearms regulation within the boundaries of the state, including the registration, licensing, possession, purchase, sale, acquisition, transfer, discharge, and transportation of firearms, or any other element relating to firearms or parts thereof, including ammunition and re-loader components. Cities, towns, and counties or other municipalities may enact only those laws and ordinances relating to firearms that are specifically authorized by state law, as in RCW 9.41.300, and are consistent with this chapter. Such local ordinances shall have the same penalty as provided for by state law. Local laws and ordinances that are inconsistent with, more restrictive than, or exceed the requirements of state law shall not be enacted and are preempted and repealed, regardless of the nature of the code, charter, or home rule status of such city, town, county, or municipality.

    For us, this makes anything local of non-effect, regardless of signage or local code to the contrary...
    Last edited by jt59; 05-05-2013 at 10:28 PM.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: Ypsilanti Township posted another sign

    MCL 123.1102

    http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-123-1102

    The superMods should get input & link to state laws in each state forum. I can't count the # of times I linked to MI & AZ laws, but it's an awful lot. So there clearly is a need for this information. Just saying...
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 05-06-2013 at 12:33 AM.
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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jt59 View Post
    It doesn't seem to actually say that possession is a crime of any sort

    Sec. 46-61. - Possession and use of firearms; dangerous weapons; fireworks.

    It shall be unlawful for any person to:

    (1)

    Possess within park property, fire or discharge, or cause to be fired or discharged across, in or into any portion of the park, any gun or firearm, spear, bow and arrow, crossbow, sling shot, air or gas weapon, or any other dangerous weapon or projectile, except for purposes designated by the board in areas and at times designated by the board;
    "The Board" doesn't get to make regulations, rules, or laws about firearm possession on Township property.

    123.1102 Regulation of pistols or other firearms.

    Sec. 2.
    A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.
    Bronson
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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Well,,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by jt59 View Post
    I couldn't find anything in the MI sticky's, do you guys have an equivalent to WA?

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.290


    State preemption.


    The state of Washington hereby fully occupies and preempts the entire field of firearms regulation within the boundaries of the state, including the registration, licensing, possession, purchase, sale, acquisition, transfer, discharge, and transportation of firearms, or any other element relating to firearms or parts thereof, including ammunition and re-loader components. Cities, towns, and counties or other municipalities may enact only those laws and ordinances relating to firearms that are specifically authorized by state law, as in RCW 9.41.300, and are consistent with this chapter. Such local ordinances shall have the same penalty as provided for by state law. Local laws and ordinances that are inconsistent with, more restrictive than, or exceed the requirements of state law shall not be enacted and are preempted and repealed, regardless of the nature of the code, charter, or home rule status of such city, town, county, or municipality.

    For us, this makes anything local of non-effect, regardless of signage or local code to the contrary...
    Hi JT; go to handgunlawus.com click Michigan
    go about half way down to find the state premption
    shorter than ours but just as good.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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