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Thread: Virginia Beach's Beach Violence - Shootings, Stabbings and Robberies

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    Virginia Beach's Beach Violence - Shootings, Stabbings and Robberies

    Yupper, no reason whatsoever to OC at the beach. My only surprise is that it made the news (although it was below the fold on the front page) as violence is such an "anti-tourist" kind of thing, don't you know....


    http://hamptonroads.com/2013/04/conc...front-violence
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    Yupper, no reason whatsoever to OC at the beach. My only surprise is that it made the news (although it was below the fold on the front page) as violence is such an "anti-tourist" kind of thing, don't you know....


    http://hamptonroads.com/2013/04/conc...front-violence
    Virginia Beach would be considered a model neighborhood in NYC or Chicago - just sayin'.

    Wonder if the troublemakers are "from around here".
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Virginia Beach would be considered a model neighborhood in NYC or Chicago - just sayin'.

    Wonder if the troublemakers are "from around here".
    Several things were prominently not said about the troublemakers. What was mentioned that while there was no "official" sponsor of the events, they were all arranged via social media. Maybe I ought to stick a toe into the 21st Century and learn how that Twatter thing works? I hear that MyBook is circling the drain, so I'll only need to figure out FaceSpace. Is that right?

    For those who are still not getting it, situational awareness no longer just means keeping your head on a swivel and the wax out of your ears. Having some notion of where things are going to "happen" helps avoid going stupid places where stupid people are going to be doing stupid things.

    stay safe.
    Last edited by skidmark; 04-29-2013 at 07:04 AM. Reason: typo
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Several things were prominently not said about the troublemakers. What was mentioned that while there was no "official" sponsor of the events, they were all arranged via social media. Maybe I ought to stick a toe into the 21st Century and learn how that Twatter thing works? I hear that MyBook is circling the drain, so I'll only need to figure out FaceSpace. Is that right?

    For those who are still not getting it, situational awareness no longer just means keeping your head on a swivel and the wax out of your ears. Having some notion of where things are going to "happen" helps avoid going stupid places where stupid people are going to be doing stupid things.

    stay safe.
    Exactly. They do not "like" unofficial, non-sponsored events (after all, fewer money making opportunities with those unofficial events). And it seems that it's often a "head in the sand" approach for non-sponsored events (referring to "official" City sponsored events). But regardless of official or not events, one constant is that if someone (anyone) advertises (or Tweets, or FaceBook, or whatever) that there are going to be a bunch of college kids congregating at the beach, lots of folks are going to come. And there's a clear track record of "outsiders" (those not really part of the event) mixing in, and often trouble soon follows.

    Monthly I have folks come from far and wide to my training course in Virginia Beach (had a week ago in the same workshop someone from North Carolina and someone else from Tunisia). And as has happened many times before, despite my making a recommendation that folks NOT stay at the beach front, someone does. A week ago one attendee stayed two nights there but fearing for her safety because of gangs (oops, we're not allowed to say "gangs" here as the head in the sand doesn't recognize "gangs" as an official problem, same for homeless issues) on the streets by her hotel she checked out and went to Town Center.

    The beach front isn't like it was 25 years ago. They have those comical "no cursing" signs, enforce an anti-cruising ordinance, and turn on bright lights when bars close. But none of that seems to really address real issues that take place there. All it takes is one Friday evening stroll along the boardwalk to show you why a lot of folks avoid the beach and if you go you'd better be thinking about your own safety -- especially when there are events of some kind ongoing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Virginia Beach would be considered a model neighborhood in NYC or Chicago - just sayin'.

    Wonder if the troublemakers are "from around here".
    These kinds of things do attract folks from nearby, not necessarily "around here" but close enough for the drive. It will be interesting to see what comes out of the expected update today with regards to announced arrests (and what info will be available with that).

    True that...that we're not up to NYC or Chicago "standards"....and at least you can OC down there. But either way, I avoid the beach during these events (especially after dinner hours) the same way that I don't ride the Red Line in downtown Chicago at night and by myself when I'm there!
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    These kinds of things do attract folks from nearby, not necessarily "around here" but close enough for the drive. It will be interesting to see what comes out of the expected update today with regards to announced arrests (and what info will be available with that).

    True that...that we're not up to NYC or Chicago "standards"....and at least you can OC down there. But either way, I avoid the beach during these events (especially after dinner hours) the same way that I don't ride the Red Line in downtown Chicago at night and by myself when I'm there!
    You go to Chicago by yourself....downtown.....at night. I have no words..... I'm........
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

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    And so we give up our homeland to insecurity.

    I'm sure that all of US have areas and neighborhoods that we avoid, even while armed. I haven't seen my hippie haunts in East San Jose for forty years, since visiting after returning from SE Asia - looked just like Tijuana used to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    You go to Chicago by yourself....downtown.....at night. I have no words..... I'm........
    Yeah, for business. But I tend to stay on the northside and cab it to the conference site, or if the conference site is decent might just stay there and so don't even need to leave the hotel at night.
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    Unfortunately, I was attending a wedding at the ocean front Saturday night (Atlantic and 39th St). As I was wearing a dress and heels I had no place to safely store my gun (my subcompact has a malfunctioning recoil spring, and I'm awaiting a new one from Sig to arrive so I couldn't carry that, and only had full size guns in working order), so I had to leave it at home, but did carry a tactical knife in my purse. The absence of my gun did actually draw attention from my friends as 1) they're not accustomed to seeing me in a dress and heels, and 2) because I NEVER go anywhere without my gun, and had made an exception to that rule for this one wedding (will never make that mistake again). Thank God I was able to safely make it from the hotel where the wedding was to the parking garage where my truck was parked when I left late that night. When I got home and read the reports of all that had happened mere feet from me, I realized my mistake, and will never leave home unprotected again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Justine View Post
    Unfortunately, I was attending a wedding at the ocean front Saturday night (Atlantic and 39th St). As I was wearing a dress and heels I had no place to safely store my gun (my subcompact has a malfunctioning recoil spring, and I'm awaiting a new one from Sig to arrive so I couldn't carry that, and only had full size guns in working order), so I had to leave it at home, but did carry a tactical knife in my purse. The absence of my gun did actually draw attention from my friends as 1) they're not accustomed to seeing me in a dress and heels, and 2) because I NEVER go anywhere without my gun, and had made an exception to that rule for this one wedding (will never make that mistake again). Thank God I was able to safely make it from the hotel where the wedding was to the parking garage where my truck was parked when I left late that night. When I got home and read the reports of all that had happened mere feet from me, I realized my mistake, and will never leave home unprotected again.
    At least you made it with no issues and were able to learn from it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Justine View Post
    Unfortunately, I was attending a wedding at the ocean front Saturday night (Atlantic and 39th St). As I was wearing a dress and heels I had no place to safely store my gun (my subcompact has a malfunctioning recoil spring, and I'm awaiting a new one from Sig to arrive so I couldn't carry that, and only had full size guns in working order), so I had to leave it at home, but did carry a tactical knife in my purse. The absence of my gun did actually draw attention from my friends as 1) they're not accustomed to seeing me in a dress and heels, and 2) because I NEVER go anywhere without my gun, and had made an exception to that rule for this one wedding (will never make that mistake again). Thank God I was able to safely make it from the hotel where the wedding was to the parking garage where my truck was parked when I left late that night. When I got home and read the reports of all that had happened mere feet from me, I realized my mistake, and will never leave home unprotected again.
    I'm glad to hear that you were okay! From this morning's reports of innocent bystanders being mobbed and robbed it is clear that even with protection things could have gone very bad quickly.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justine View Post
    --snipped--I was wearing a dress and heels

    When I got home and read the reports of all that had happened mere feet from me, I realized my mistake, and will never leave home unprotected again.
    Ladies have more options in this mode and better concealment than most men's options.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Ladies have more options in this mode and better concealment than most men's options.
    If my subcompact were in working order, then yes, you are correct, but the recoil spring is damaged, and I'm awaiting a new one, so I only had my full sized guns available, and there wouldn't have been any easy concealment of those in what I was wearing. Hopefully the new springs for my subcompact arrive soon. This was certainly a lessons learned as Ron stated. Maybe a garter-type holster for the future to wear along my thigh (seems much more practical than a bra holster)?

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justine View Post
    If my subcompact were in working order, then yes, you are correct, but the recoil spring is damaged, and I'm awaiting a new one, so I only had my full sized guns available, and there wouldn't have been any easy concealment of those in what I was wearing. Hopefully the new springs for my subcompact arrive soon. This was certainly a lessons learned as Ron stated. Maybe a garter-type holster for the future to wear along my thigh (seems much more practical than a bra holster)?
    Perhaps some pepper spray is in order?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Perhaps some pepper spray is in order?
    In my experience pepper spray is not a very effective self defense tool. I've been sprayed with pepper spray, and honestly, it's no big deal as long as the person doesn't panic. I did have a knife on me (blade length within the parameters of the law). Thankfully, I don't often wear clothes that make carrying difficult, but I do plan to have something in place so I can safely carry for future formal events.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Perhaps some pepper spray is in order?
    That brings up a good question that I've always wondered about. It seems that any demo vids that I've seen for those types of defensive items showed them being used against the assailant on a one-on-one basis. From your experience, how effective can pepper spray (what is available to consumers at least, vs. crowd control versions available for police, military, etc.) be when attacked by a mob such as many of the incidents identified were in this situation? Or is it more a case of something is better than nothing?
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    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    That brings up a good question that I've always wondered about. It seems that any demo vids that I've seen for those types of defensive items showed them being used against the assailant on a one-on-one basis. From your experience, how effective can pepper spray (what is available to consumers at least, vs. crowd control versions available for police, military, etc.) be when attacked by a mob such as many of the incidents identified were in this situation? Or is it more a case of something is better than nothing?
    That is a good point. As many of the incidents involved mobs pepper spray, the knife, or a gun would all likely have been somewhat lacking as a whole. Honestly, that's why I avoid the oceanfront, and most extremely crowded events. Another exception I made due to my friend's getting married. But, now that that is over with, it's back to business as usual for me.

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    Regular Member HearseGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    That brings up a good question that I've always wondered about. It seems that any demo vids that I've seen for those types of defensive items showed them being used against the assailant on a one-on-one basis. From your experience, how effective can pepper spray (what is available to consumers at least, vs. crowd control versions available for police, military, etc.) be when attacked by a mob such as many of the incidents identified were in this situation? Or is it more a case of something is better than nothing?
    Good point. This reminds me that at the VB gun show this weekend while shopping for a firearm for the ole lady, one sales guy was really pushing a revolver then went on about "pocket pistols". When I told him for the 8th time that she (and I) wanted more capacity such as a Glock 26, he got all pissy and said "why are you going on about capacity? Most situations your attacker is going to be arms lentch away and you'll just bang fire a shot"

    This mob instance in VB is exactly why I thanked him for his time and walked away. Evidently he is a cop aswell. He's in a dream world if he thinks every self defence scenario is a perfect one on one at arms length away, and no shots will miss their target.
    Additional text for your reading pleasure...

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    Norfolk State University, why am I not surprised?

    This is not that unusual for Norfolk State University, one of the targeted audiences for this "festival". I remeber "Greek Fest" many years ago. Same idea. The problem for Norfolk State is the gang element that always seems to permiate their events.

    Criminal thugs mix in with the college kids. +

    Lots of pressure on college kids with finals on the way +

    Lots of beer and alcohol. -

    A real police presence =

    Mayhem.
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    Noon news update had only a few new pieces of information -- one interesting point was made that one of the shooting victims was shot just 30 feet away from where a police office was standing. The point made was that whoever it was obviously wasn't deterred by police presence at all.
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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    That brings up a good question that I've always wondered about. It seems that any demo vids that I've seen for those types of defensive items showed them being used against the assailant on a one-on-one basis. From your experience, how effective can pepper spray (what is available to consumers at least, vs. crowd control versions available for police, military, etc.) be when attacked by a mob such as many of the incidents identified were in this situation? Or is it more a case of something is better than nothing?
    Sometimes I think Skidmark and myself are the only ones tha clank when we walk.

    I carry a gun which is the very last resort.
    I carry a Taser that is really only good for close range one on one.
    I carry Bear Spray with a Halon Carrier because it has better range, is more effective and good for crowds.

    I also carry a knife and Justine....there is no legal blade length for a knife except in certain places like schools.

    I carry an ASP in my camera gear. Options are always good.
    Last edited by peter nap; 04-29-2013 at 12:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I also carry a knife and Justine....there is no legal blade length for a knife except in certain places like schools.
    Gotcha, I thought the blade had to be 3" or less, but that's good to know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Justine View Post
    Gotcha, I thought the blade had to be 3" or less, but that's good to know.
    If it's carried concealed, you need to make sure you're not in violation of paragraph A.ii & A.v of 18.2-308

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    Last edited by roscoe13; 04-29-2013 at 01:57 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by roscoe13 View Post
    If it's carried concealed, you need to make sure you're not in violation of paragraph A.ii & A.v of 18.2-308

    Roscoe
    That 1st paragraph describes very specific knife types: "any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor." A common folding knife, even with 'assisted' opening (not a switchblade), does not fall within that definition. Even the catchall "like kind" statement has to reference back to the defined types.

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    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    That 1st paragraph describes very specific knife types: "any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor." A common folding knife, even with 'assisted' opening (not a switchblade), does not fall within that definition. Even the catchall "like kind" statement has to reference back to the defined types.
    What's your point? Justine never specified whether her tactical knife was folding or not. Peter Nap said there's no blade length limit, which is true (at the state level), but that doesn't mean that one can carry any knife one wants if it's concealed.

    Another important consideration is that there's no statewide preemption relating to knife laws, so it's entirely possible that VB or other localities could have valid laws on the books regarding blade length.

    Roscoe
    Last edited by roscoe13; 04-29-2013 at 02:14 PM.
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