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Thread: Tagging people has begun - start in UK and beginning with the weak

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    Tagging people has begun - start in UK and beginning with the weak

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/he...-patients.html

    Dementia patients are to be fitted with GPS tracking devices for the first time to save police money searching for those who regularly go missing.


    What they gonna say, no?

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    I wish my friends grandfather had been tagged. He suffered from Alzheimer's and walked away from his residence and despite a large search effort, died from exposure before he could be located. Everything is not always a govt. conspiracy, no matter how much some folks want it to be.

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    Regular Member Steeler-gal's Avatar
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    Tagging people has begun - start in UK and beginning with the weak

    The tracking device can be worn around a patient’s neck, clipped to a belt or attached to a set of house keys. It features a button which enables the wearer to speak directly to an operator in a 24-hour call centre.
    I have no problem wit a device being used by hospitals or nursing facilities to keep track of patients. They had ankle "bracelets" with GPS in them at the home where we had my father before he died. The problem is that I don't believe an Alzheimer's patient (who is far gone mentally) would have any idea how to use one of these devices.


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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    We have been using these tracking devices at work (Fire/EMS) for several years now. We have been able to locate more than 1 strayed off Alzheimer/dementia patient. A great tool to have.
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    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steeler-gal View Post
    I have no problem wit a device being used by hospitals or nursing facilities to keep track of patients. They had ankle "bracelets" with GPS in them at the home where we had my father before he died. The problem is that I don't believe an Alzheimer's patient (who is far gone mentally) would have any idea how to use one of these devices.


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    They don't have to use/do anything. They are tracked by the bracelet that they are wearing. No intervention from the patient is needed. Kind of like the dog tracking system used by coon hunters.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Regular Member Baked on Grease's Avatar
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    Re: Tagging people has begun - start in UK and beginning with the weak

    I have no problem with the idea... On a voluntary basis. The issue arrises when it's the gov't that is mandating their use instead of private organizations offering a service. First it's dementia/alzhiemers... Then felons/sex criminals... The drunk drivers... Then... Then... Then...


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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Just another of the OP's tempests in a teapot.

    Nobody is being forced to wear one. Nobody is being threatened with "dire consequences" if they do not put one on grandpa/granny. I don't even see where anybody is being told they will have to pay for a replacement if grandpa/granny loses/ditches the thing. (But how can it be lost if all you need to do is turn on the tracking mechanism and see where to go to retrieve it?)

    If there is a complaint to be made, it would be that the police are paying for this, which means the taxpayers are paying. But, as the cops said, they spend more in an old fashioned manhunt than they do for the annual cost for all the devices. So the taxpayers are getting a (theoretical) reduction in costs. Sort of kills that complaint, doesn't it?

    The do-gooders are whining that it is inhumane and "brands" the wearer. Besides the fact that the thing can be worn on a ribbon/lanyard around the neck where it would not be visible, it sounds like the do-gooders are the heartless ones who would rather someone who wanders off spend hours until they are found IF they ever do get found. How ironic.

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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    All people are already tagged in Malaysia like dogs. First, everyone was required to carry their national id card. Now they're putting the chips in them. Not surprisingly, gun ownership gets you the death penalty there. No body loves tyranny like Asians. Well, except maybe people in New Jersey.
    Last edited by 77zach; 05-01-2013 at 07:54 PM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    Well, except maybe people in New Jersey.
    BS all we want is to put in some dunes ..... hahaha that fatass is comical

    To all others who think tagging is OK ... its NOT

    You tag dogs, not people.

    And I doubt its "voluntary" in the UK ... they may say it is, but its not .... like when Obamalama tells you he supports gun control

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    Tagging people has begun - start in UK and beginning with the weak

    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    They don't have to use/do anything. They are tracked by the bracelet that they are wearing. No intervention from the patient is needed. Kind of like the dog tracking system used by coon hunters.
    The article says there's a button for communication.
    The tracking device can be worn around a patient’s neck, clipped to a belt or attached to a set of house keys. It features a button which enables the wearer to speak directly to an operator in a 24-hour call centre.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steeler-gal View Post
    The article says there's a button for communication.



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    I'm guessing that would be kind of like a "life-alert" feature. I would assume it would track at all times in case they went missing, but if they still live alone and maybe fell and couldn't get to a phone they could use the button to get help. I don't see why it's a bad thing. I sure would have liked to have one for my great-grandmother when she still lived at home and would sometimes wander outside and forget how to get back in and end up walking down the road. Sometimes people need to chill the **** out, everything isn't a conspiracy or some kind of revelations prophecy crap. Some times, albeit rarely, things are done to help provide for the general wellbeing of those who can no longer take care of themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADobbs1989 View Post
    I'm guessing that would be kind of like a "life-alert" feature. I would assume it would track at all times in case they went missing, but if they still live alone and maybe fell and couldn't get to a phone they could use the button to get help. I don't see why it's a bad thing. I sure would have liked to have one for my great-grandmother when she still lived at home and would sometimes wander outside and forget how to get back in and end up walking down the road. Sometimes people need to chill the **** out, everything isn't a conspiracy or some kind of revelations prophecy crap. Some times, albeit rarely, things are done to help provide for the general wellbeing of those who can no longer take care of themselves.
    But I think you'll agree...the gov't need not be involved with the tagging of people for this purpose, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    But I think you'll agree...the gov't need not be involved with the tagging of people for this purpose, right?
    I didn't see where it was mandatory. (It could be, but I can't say it is unless I know, speculation is useless) If the government would like to provide a security option to families who are taking care of their relatives who have dementia, I don't see how it could possibly be a problem. Everything has it's limits, if they try to mandate it, or try to extend the mandate to other groups then it's bad, but from what I see it is still in a phase where it's a service offered but not required.

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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADobbs1989 View Post
    ... If the government would like to provide a security option to families who are taking care of their relatives who have dementia, I don't see how it could possibly be a problem. ...
    Then you're being naive. If this is being offered as a service by a company that a patient and/or their guardian/family can decide to purchase, awesome. The second it becomes a "government service" the entire scenario changes. No matter which way you look at it, it's at least worse. From a moral standpoint, economic standpoint, any standpoint.

    I cut the above part out of the rest of your post because it's the only part that I disagree with. Ableit, the majority of your post I can't really disagree with.
    Last edited by stealthyeliminator; 05-01-2013 at 11:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    Then you're being naive. If this is being offered as a service by a company that a patient and/or their guardian/family can decide to purchase, awesome. The second it becomes a "government service" the entire scenario changes. No matter which way you look at it, it's at least worse. From a moral standpoint, economic standpoint, any standpoint.

    I cut the above part out of the rest of your post because it's the only part that I disagree with. Ableit, the majority of your post I can't really disagree with.
    +1 at least one guy isn't brainwashed into thinking gov't interference is always a good thing ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Just another of the OP's tempests in a teapot.

    <snip>

    stay safe.
    This certainly is not a tempest in a teapot. Focus on the real issue and not on the gadget.

    [Dot]Gibson accused the authorities of "trying to get care on the cheap", adding: "It looks at the problem in the wrong way. If you've got people in the community who are so bad that they are wandering off at night and are not safe, they should be properly cared for; they shouldn't be tagged.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...cator-dementia
    The real issue is the proper care of our seasoned citizens, not how we keep track of our seasoned citizens.

    As a side note, Obamacare is more about "tagging" than properly "caring for."
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    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    Then you're being naive. If this is being offered as a service by a company that a patient and/or their guardian/family can decide to purchase, awesome. The second it becomes a "government service" the entire scenario changes. No matter which way you look at it, it's at least worse. From a moral standpoint, economic standpoint, any standpoint.

    I cut the above part out of the rest of your post because it's the only part that I disagree with. Ableit, the majority of your post I can't really disagree with.
    Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the UK have a centralized government ran healthcare system? Which would mean this is exactly the way it should be working. If you have the standpoint that the government healthcare is a bad system then that's fine, but since they are already doing this...the government would be the ones offering the system, not a random company. I won't pretend to know everything about this issue, as none of us know all the information, but as far as I can see it doesn't seem to be some sort of malicious attack on the elderly, just a way to help the families take care of them. It very well could have underlying causes that are bad, and it could very easily become something bad, but I don't see that it's at that point yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    +1 at least one guy isn't brainwashed into thinking gov't interference is always a good thing ...
    Never said government interference is always a good thing. In fact I would agree that more often than not it's a bad thing, but I'm also not a right wing nut job who thinks everything the government does is either a conspiracy or evil. I judge the governments acts based on what I know about it, and this doesn't seem to be evil or have malicious intent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    This certainly is not a tempest in a teapot. Focus on the real issue and not on the gadget.

    The real issue is the proper care of our seasoned citizens, not how we keep track of our seasoned citizens.

    As a side note, Obamacare is more about "tagging" than properly "caring for."
    And just how would you go about caring for seasoned citizens with a proclivity to wander off? Would you keep them behind a fence? Would you take away their shoes and scatter broken glass on the wealkways? How about just putting them on a long leash that is tied off to a pole out in the yard?

    At this time there is no known cure for dementia, nor is there any known means of reversing the damage already done. The best that can be hoped for is to slow the progress somewhat - and that has serious ethical concerns. Some folks that wander know where they want to go back to but have a spot of trouble getting back there. Others cannot form the cognition for that - they are both physically and mentally lost.

    Hey! It being (f)Great Britain where this is happening, let's do a double-whammy and resolve two problems with one fix. Every dementia patient gets a minder assigned to them. Every yob, yute, chav and ruffian under an ASBO gets assigned to mind a seasoned citizen. If the math is near correct, it ought to just about even out. Yeah, that ought to work out just peachy. eh wot?

    stay safe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    And just how would you go about caring for seasoned citizens with a proclivity to wander off? <snip>
    I would place the burden on the "facility", that granny or gramps is dumped in to by their snot nosed kids, to have a modicum of awareness that a door was opened and that someone may have walked out of the joint. There is, in my house, three times a beep when any door is opened. Hear it in my bedroom, wakes me up it does.

    YMMV
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Steeler-gal's Avatar
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    Tagging people has begun - start in UK and beginning with the weak

    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    But I think you'll agree...the gov't need not be involved with the tagging of people for this purpose, right?
    I agree that it shouldn't be mandatory by the government.


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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I would place the burden on the "facility", that granny or gramps is dumped in to by their snot nosed kids, to have a modicum of awareness that a door was opened and that someone may have walked out of the joint. There is, in my house, three times a beep when any door is opened. Hear it in my bedroom, wakes me up it does.

    YMMV
    What about all the people who are trying to take care of their parents/grandparents at home who have a tendency to get out of the house? In a home environment it's impossible to keep watch 100% of the time. Are you saying that dementia patients should HAVE to be put into a "facility" to allow them to keep careful watch?

    There IS NO GOOD "treatment" plan for dementia patients. And every option in one way or another is going to be of negative impact on the patients "rights". Either you put them in a facility where they are generally mistreated (basically a dog pound for old people) or you come up with ways to keep them contained within your home. I guess unless you take the stance that we should just ignore them and let then wander the streets until they die. Great plan.

    If all these people are escaping from facilities then they need to be evaluated to see what the problem is, but I would figure that the majority of dementia patients escaping are those who wander off from a private residence that doesn't have security doors and alarms and guards and employees.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADobbs1989 View Post
    What about all the people who are trying to take care of their parents/grandparents at home who have a tendency to get out of the house? In a home environment it's impossible to keep watch 100% of the time. Are you saying that dementia patients should HAVE to be put into a "facility" to allow them to keep careful watch?

    There IS NO GOOD "treatment" plan for dementia patients. And every option in one way or another is going to be of negative impact on the patients "rights". Either you put them in a facility where they are generally mistreated (basically a dog pound for old people) or you come up with ways to keep them contained within your home. I guess unless you take the stance that we should just ignore them and let then wander the streets until they die. Great plan.

    If all these people are escaping from facilities then they need to be evaluated to see what the problem is, but I would figure that the majority of dementia patients escaping are those who wander off from a private residence that doesn't have security doors and alarms and guards and employees.
    A great deal of hyperbole in your comments.

    The problem is that professional facilities are not keeping a watchful eye on those who are in their care. In a home setting the same logic applies.

    The professional facility must bear the burden of keeping watch over those in their care. The government, British in the case of the OP, can mandate harsh penalties for not keeping watch over those in their care.

    In the home, what family member care giver will not be in the home? The cost associated with installing some form of "alarm" system that sounds a "alarm" when a door is opened is far lower than the cost of finding a family member who has wandered away unnoticed. The need for a tracking device is mitigated when there are watchful eyes close at hand regardless of the setting.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    A great deal of hyperbole in your comments.

    The problem is that professional facilities are not keeping a watchful eye on those who are in their care. In a home setting the same logic applies.

    The professional facility must bear the burden of keeping watch over those in their care. The government, British in the case of the OP, can mandate harsh penalties for not keeping watch over those in their care.

    In the home, what family member care giver will not be in the home? The cost associated with installing some form of "alarm" system that sounds a "alarm" when a door is opened is far lower than the cost of finding a family member who has wandered away unnoticed. The need for a tracking device is mitigated when there are watchful eyes close at hand regardless of the setting.
    How do you know? I didn't see where it was facilities these people were getting lost from. Maybe you read something I missed. As far as family members you can't put a blanket "this is what you have to do" statement. When I was younger living with my grandparents, my great grandmother was also living with us because she wasn't able to completely live alone. My grandmother worked, my grandfather worked when work was available, and I was in school. Sometimes there was no one available to always have an eye on her. That's called life, everyone can't always adhere to the best situations. Just because you are able to do something, or someone else is able to do something, doesn't mean everyone can do it. That's a logical fallacy. And the cost of asking for a free tracking device is even cheaper than retrofitting your house with alarm systems and fancy hoo-haa's to notify you every time someone moves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADobbs1989 View Post
    How do you know? I didn't see where it was facilities these people were getting lost from. Maybe you read something I missed. As far as family members you can't put a blanket "this is what you have to do" statement. When I was younger living with my grandparents, my great grandmother was also living with us because she wasn't able to completely live alone. My grandmother worked, my grandfather worked when work was available, and I was in school. Sometimes there was no one available to always have an eye on her. That's called life, everyone can't always adhere to the best situations. Just because you are able to do something, or someone else is able to do something, doesn't mean everyone can do it. That's a logical fallacy. And the cost of asking for a free tracking device is even cheaper than retrofitting your house with alarm systems and fancy hoo-haa's to notify you every time someone moves.
    The article does not state professional facilities or home settings. So, where are these poor souls before they are determined to have wandered off? I made a effort to address this situation if it arises in my future while I am able to pay for it. Even one component at a time purchases will yield benefits far beyond the meager cost to ensure a loved ones safety. I also believe that when a "child" has chosen to attend to their parents needs then adjustments must be made. Times are tough for everybody as they say.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Steeler-gal's Avatar
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    Tagging people has begun - start in UK and beginning with the weak

    Quote Originally Posted by ADobbs1989 View Post
    There IS NO GOOD "treatment" plan for dementia patients. And every option in one way or another is going to be of negative impact on the patients "rights". Either you put them in a facility where they are generally mistreated (basically a dog pound for old people) or you come up with ways to keep them contained within your home. I guess unless you take the stance that we should just ignore them and let then wander the streets until they die. Great plan.

    If all these people are escaping from facilities then they need to be evaluated to see what the problem is, but I would figure that the majority of dementia patients escaping are those who wander off from a private residence that doesn't have security doors and alarms and guards and employees.
    Not every facility is just basically a dog kennel for people. Some are, but not all. You have to take a lot of time to research but there are good ones.

    As for how they are getting out of facilities - You have to realize that some of these places aren't locked during the daytime. Only at night. So, the staff thinks the person is out with family when they aren't and they don't find out or realize until it is bedtime that the patient isn't there. Yes some of them probably don't have great security

    At home - it is not easy to keep track. Twice my dad woke up and left the house in the middle of the night. Once we were lucky because my brother had stepped outside a smoke and ran into my dad as he was leaving to go home "because his Mom was probably worried." My brother convinced him to go back in the house. The other time she had no idea until the phone rang at 5am and it was a neighbor from 2.5 miles away calling to tell her he had nearly run over my dad who was wandering down the street. We have no idea how long he had been out wandering the neighborhoods. We put alarms on all the doors and windows so you could always know when someone was coming or going. Annoying for those of us grown enough to come and go? Yeah, but it kept Dad safe.

    My point in telling this is that Yes unfortunately you do have to go to extreme circumstances to keep people safe whether you are caring for them at home or caring for them in a facility.


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