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Thread: Open carry question and GFSZ

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    Open carry question and GFSZ

    I have a question about open carry and GFSZ's. If I'm open carrying a pistol made in Washington state and purchased in WA, without a CPL in a Washington state school zone, wouldn't a violation of the GFSZ Act be a non sequitur since the firearm hasn't traveled in interstate commerce?
    Last edited by Amicus; 05-03-2013 at 03:09 AM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amicus View Post
    I have a question about open carry and GFSZ's. If I'm open carrying a 1911 pistol made in Washington state and purchased in WA, without a CPL in a Washington state school zone, wouldn't a violation of the GFSZ Act be a non sequitur since the firearm hasn't traveled in interstate commerce?
    A question asked in many sundry forms before. While the present law is likely unconstituional and seldom (ever?) prosecuted as a primary offense at the federal level, it is the law.

    It is the BATFE position that some part, material and/or substance have been involved via interstate commerce.
    http://www.atf.gov/files/publication...f-p-5300-4.pdf
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    I guess it all comes down to the very vague and wide-open Part A (bolded by me):

    It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
    Since the initial GFZA that was passed was ruled unconstitutional and they changed it to specify it only pertains to firearms that have been active in interstate or foreign commerce. most of the circuit courts have upheld the revised version.


    So, ultimately it comes down to how does one define whether a firearm has "moved in or otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce". That is an incredibly broad statement, and given the very wide-open interpretation of the Commerce Clause and the various presidence-setting rulings by the Supreme Court, I think one would have a very difficult time arguing that even a firearm manufactured solely in washington does not "move in or otherwise affect interstate or foreign commerce". When the Court has ruled (in Wickard v. Filburn) that growing wheat on one's own land purely for one's own consumption is something congress can legislate under the Commerce Clause because the whole of a bunch of individual farmers growing their own wheat could potentially impact interstate commerce...

    I imagine they would also make the argument that the materials used to manufacture the firearm were not 100% sourced from Washington so purchasing those materials affected interstate or foreign commerce, or that the machines that were used to manufacture the firearm did, or that any number of other justifications make it so that that firearm in some way (directly or indirectly) affects interstate or foreign commerce.
    Last edited by muggins; 05-03-2013 at 03:36 AM.

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    So, essentially interstate commerce is really no more than a perversion of the "Butterfly Effect". I suppose the gov. could argue the minutia Ad nauseam; even to the point of the use of lubricant place on the firearm for proper function being a petroleum distillate from the Middle East.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amicus View Post
    So, essentially interstate commerce is really no more than a perversion of the "Butterfly Effect". I suppose the gov. could argue the minutia Ad nauseam; even to the point of the use of lubricant place on the firearm for proper function being a petroleum distillate from the Middle East.
    I see that you are a quick study.

    BTW - forgot my manners - welcome to the forum.
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    This law is basically unenforceable. I follow state law. That's all that concerns me.

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    [QUOTE=Amicus;1933336]So, essentially interstate commerce is really no more than a perversion of the "Butterfly Effect".

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    I see that you are a quick study. BTW - forgot my manners - welcome to the forum.
    It is always nice to welcome someone new from Washington State. Make life easy for yourself and pick up a CPL. It deletes the load/unload problem getting in and out of vehicles. Depending upon where in Wa you are, stop by for a coffee at your local meet. Again , Welcome to OCDO
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCKilla View Post
    This law is basically unenforceable. I follow state law. That's all that concerns me.
    So, do you carry into post offices?

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    Welcome to OCDO.
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    Thanks for the welcome. I've already had the pleasure of meeting at least one of you.

    I've only been in WA a few months so I'm trying to get a grip on the laws. I moved from MT where we didn't have to jump through too many hoops over concealed carry, school zone, etc. Looks like a CPL is in my future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amicus View Post
    Thanks for the welcome. I've already had the pleasure of meeting at least one of you.
    Welcome to OCDO and Washington.

    I've only been in WA a few months so I'm trying to get a grip on the laws. I moved from MT where we didn't have to jump through too many hoops over concealed carry, school zone, etc. Looks like a CPL is in my future.
    Good choice.
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    A right cannot be lost by exercising it. McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 3025, 130 S. Ct. 3020, 3021, 177 L. Ed. 2d 894 (2010) (citing Near v. Minn., 283 U.S. 697 (1931)).

    Although IAAL, anything I say here is not legal advice. No conversations we may have privately or otherwise in this forum constitute the formation of an attorney-client relationship, and are not intended to do so.

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    Regular Member BigDeeeeeeee's Avatar
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    What part of MT?
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    Gun free school zone?
    "Fight like you train, train like you fight"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amicus View Post
    So, essentially interstate commerce is really no more than a perversion of the "Butterfly Effect". I suppose the gov. could argue the minutia Ad nauseam; even to the point of the use of lubricant place on the firearm for proper function being a petroleum distillate from the Middle East.
    You got it! Which is why IMO our current commerce-clause jurisprudence is just as corrupting to the court's legitimacy as is RvW.

    How we get back to a decent faithful reading of that clause is left as an exercise for the reader...

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    Antique firearms are not listed in the GFSZA, whether they have moved in interstate commerce or not. Modern replicas are antique firearms by federal definitions. Most of the time most people just do not concern themselves with GFSZA, the feds have not been pushing it. If SCOTUS changes I suspect that the enforcement will change. I always have one antique firearm with me, if need be I can lock my cartridge firearm up in the car and just carry the one and still feel confident I can defend myself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDeeeeeeee View Post
    What part of MT?
    Sanders and Lincoln Counties.

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    Maybe some of you could clarify another question while we're at it. Why does the Centennial Trail website in Spokane state "no firearms"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amicus View Post
    Maybe some of you could clarify another question while we're at it. Why does the Centennial Trail website in Spokane state "no firearms"?
    The no firearms is null and void as if it does not exist per RCW 9.41.290 I will call the Centennial Trail Ranger Audra Sims @ 509-465-5064 on Monday to get it changed.

    We keep finding this every where even though State law prohibits it, its mostly ignorance with a sprinkling of arrogance in some cases. I and several others are still dealing with the Spokane Public Facilities District and the City of Spokane on unlawful laws.

    Jeff
    Last edited by Jeff Hayes; 05-03-2013 at 08:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amicus View Post
    Sanders and Lincoln Counties.
    I went to grade school in Paradise. I still spend a lot of weekends cruising around the mountains over there.
    Darren

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDeeeeeeee View Post
    I went to grade school in Paradise. I still spend a lot of weekends cruising around the mountains over there.
    Small world. Wolf hunting is pretty good south of Libby along the West Fisher.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Hayes View Post
    The no firearms is null and void as if it does not exist per RCW 9.41.290 I will call the Centennial Trail Ranger Audra Sims @ 509-465-5064 on Monday to get it changed.

    We keep finding this every where even though State law prohibits it, its mostly ignorance with a sprinkling of arrogance in some cases. I and several others are still dealing with the Spokane Public Facilities District and the City of Spokane on unlawful laws.

    Jeff
    Wow. I wasn't really expecting such a positive response. I appreciate the quick advice.

    My daughter wants to ride the trial but I had read about several attacks last year; that kinda spooked me. When I read the "no firearms" under the trial rules it didn't seem to jive with what I'd read on open carry. These conflicts don't make it easy for us newcomers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amicus View Post
    Wow. I wasn't really expecting such a positive response. I appreciate the quick advice.

    My daughter wants to ride the trial but I had read about several attacks last year; that kinda spooked me. When I read the "no firearms" under the trial rules it didn't seem to jive with what I'd read on open carry. These conflicts don't make it easy for us newcomers.
    Ride the trail the no firearms is unenforceable. Now just to be clear that does not mean you might not be hassled or even arrested, keep in mind Cops only do what the law they can read says. Print out a copy od RCW 9.41.290 and put it in your pocket it might help.

    I will post Ms Sims response on Monday.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Hayes View Post
    Ride the trail the no firearms is unenforceable. Now just to be clear that does not mean you might not be hassled or even arrested, keep in mind Cops only do what the law they can read says. Print out a copy od RCW 9.41.290 and put it in your pocket it might help.

    I will post Ms Sims response on Monday.
    Got busy today, grand daughter badly broke her arm, and I forgot to call I will take care of it tomorrow.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Hayes View Post
    Got busy today, grand daughter badly broke her arm, and I forgot to call I will take care of it tomorrow.
    Gotta take care of important business first - hope she heals well and fast.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Hayes View Post
    Got busy today, grand daughter badly broke her arm, and I forgot to call I will take care of it tomorrow.
    Hope she is doing OK.

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