Open carry question and GFSZ

Amicus · May 3, 2013

Jeff Hayes said:
The no firearms is null and void as if it does not exist per RCW 9.41.290 I will call the Centennial Trail Ranger Audra Sims @ 509-465-5064 on Monday to get it changed.

We keep finding this every where even though State law prohibits it, its mostly ignorance with a sprinkling of arrogance in some cases. I and several others are still dealing with the Spokane Public Facilities District and the City of Spokane on unlawful laws.

Jeff

Wow. I wasn't really expecting such a positive response. I appreciate the quick advice.

My daughter wants to ride the trial but I had read about several attacks last year; that kinda spooked me. When I read the "no firearms" under the trial rules it didn't seem to jive with what I'd read on open carry. These conflicts don't make it easy for us newcomers.

Jeff Hayes · May 3, 2013

Amicus said:
Wow. I wasn't really expecting such a positive response. I appreciate the quick advice.

My daughter wants to ride the trial but I had read about several attacks last year; that kinda spooked me. When I read the "no firearms" under the trial rules it didn't seem to jive with what I'd read on open carry. These conflicts don't make it easy for us newcomers.

Ride the trail the no firearms is unenforceable. Now just to be clear that does not mean you might not be hassled or even arrested, keep in mind Cops only do what the law they can read says. Print out a copy od RCW 9.41.290 and put it in your pocket it might help.

I will post Ms Sims response on Monday.

Jeff Hayes · May 6, 2013

Jeff Hayes said:
Ride the trail the no firearms is unenforceable. Now just to be clear that does not mean you might not be hassled or even arrested, keep in mind Cops only do what the law they can read says. Print out a copy od RCW 9.41.290 and put it in your pocket it might help.

I will post Ms Sims response on Monday.

Got busy today, grand daughter badly broke her arm, and I forgot to call I will take care of it tomorrow.

Grapeshot · May 6, 2013

Jeff Hayes said:
Got busy today, grand daughter badly broke her arm, and I forgot to call I will take care of it tomorrow.

Gotta take care of important business first - hope she heals well and fast.

Amicus · May 6, 2013

Jeff Hayes said:
Got busy today, grand daughter badly broke her arm, and I forgot to call I will take care of it tomorrow.

Hope she is doing OK.

Jeff Hayes · May 6, 2013

Grapeshot said:
Gotta take care of important business first - hope she heals well and fast.

She is young, 7, and will heal just fine according to the Doc. Hopefully she has now learned not to attempt to dismount a swing on the back swing.

sudden valley gunner · May 6, 2013

Jeff Hayes said:
She is young, 6, and will heal just fine according to the Doc. Hopefully she has now learned not to attempt to dismount a swing on the back swing.

Glad she is good. And good to know she was out having fun when it happened!

gogodawgs · May 6, 2013

Jeff Hayes said:
She is young, 6, and will heal just fine according to the Doc. Hopefully she has now learned not to attempt to dismount a swing on the back swing.

Nah, hopefully she will learn to do it right! Makings of an Olympic gymnast!

Jeff Hayes · May 7, 2013

gogodawgs said:
Nah, hopefully she will learn to do it right! Makings of an Olympic gymnast!

Skied the last two winters, rides her quad and gets hurt on a swing set in the back yard go figure.

Amicus · May 7, 2013

Jeff Hayes said:
She is young, 6, and will heal just fine according to the Doc. Hopefully she has now learned not to attempt to dismount a swing on the back swing.

I hate it when kids get hurt, makes me fareek out.

Jeff Hayes · May 7, 2013

Amicus said:
I hate it when kids get hurt, makes me fareek out.

Active kids will get banged up on occasion and mostly they live through it just fine, the adults are a whole different story it is harder on us then the kids.

sudden valley gunner · May 7, 2013

Amicus said:
I hate it when kids get hurt, makes me fareek out.

Depends on the injuries, my kids learned to take their scrapes and bruises with a bit of pride and acknowledgement they were doing something when they got it.

Jeff Hayes said:
Active kids will get banged up on occasion and mostly they live through it just fine, the adults are a whole different story it is harder on us then the kids.

+1

Difdi · May 7, 2013

Amicus said:
So, essentially interstate commerce is really no more than a perversion of the "Butterfly Effect".

The feds like to claim that the fact that you bought a 100% locally sourced item instead of one that was made in another state (or country) invokes the commerce clause because your lack of purchase affected interstate commerce. By that argument, there is nothing in the world that is outside the grasp of the commerce clause.

It's possible to make a gun using only materials from Washington using tools made from materials only from Washington, shooting ammunition made in Washington from materials only sourced from Washington and tools made from materials from Washington. Even lube can be done that way.

But it would be an enormously expensive and complicated undertaking, and the resulting gun would probably be less than top of the line quality. And the feds would probably still insist the commerce clause applies, because the knowledge to make it wasn't invented in Washington.

Amicus · May 7, 2013

Difdi said:
The feds like to claim that the fact that you bought a 100% locally sourced item instead of one that was made in another state (or country) invokes the commerce clause because your lack of purchase affected interstate commerce. By that argument, there is nothing in the world that is outside the grasp of the commerce clause.

It's possible to make a gun using only materials from Washington using tools made from materials only from Washington, shooting ammunition made in Washington from materials only sourced from Washington and tools made from materials from Washington. Even lube can be done that way.

But it would be an enormously expensive and complicated undertaking, and the resulting gun would probably be less than top of the line quality. And the feds would probably still insist the commerce clause applies, because the knowledge to make it wasn't invented in Washington.

You forgot that the workers the made the gun may not have been conceived in Washington!

Grapeshot · May 7, 2013

Difdi said:
The feds like to claim that the fact that you bought a 100% locally sourced item instead of one that was made in another state (or country) invokes the commerce clause because your lack of purchase affected interstate commerce. By that argument, there is nothing in the world that is outside the grasp of the commerce clause.

It's possible to make a gun using only materials from Washington using tools made from materials only from Washington, shooting ammunition made in Washington from materials only sourced from Washington and tools made from materials from Washington. Even lube can be done that way.

But it would be an enormously expensive and complicated undertaking, and the resulting gun would probably be less than top of the line quality. And the feds would probably still insist the commerce clause applies, because the knowledge to make it wasn't invented in Washington.

It's the old it effects interstate commerce because it wasn't involved in interstate commerce argument :banghead:

Jeff Hayes · May 7, 2013

OK I got a hold of Shannon (SP) at The Riverside State Park office who insists that their no firearms law/rule is legal because they are the State and the State is not subject to RCW 9.41.290 and 300 and can make any firearms laws/rules they please. I pointed out that we have a camp out at Confluence State Park every year and her response was that is a special event so we can carry. I was also informed that Shannon knew the law and that the Park Rangers were Law enforcement Officers and they knew the law. Shannon also said she could not carry at work and she has a CPL I attempted to tell her about Cherry v Seattle and gave up when I was again informed that she and the Rangers knew the law. I did not think fast enough to ask what RCW or WAC would I be cited for if I was carrying a firearm on the Centennial Trail

The Park Ranger Audra Sims is off today but Shannon was kind enough to give me her cell phone number 509-979-6595 I am assuming this is a state cell phone but I will wait to call her tomorrow when she is at work.

Amicus · May 7, 2013

Jeff Hayes said:
OK I got a hold of Shannon (SP) at The Riverside State Park office who insists that their no firearms law/rule is legal because they are the State and the State is not subject to RCW 9.41.290 and 300 and can make any firearms laws/rules they please. I pointed out that we have a camp out at Confluence State Park every year and her response was that is a special event so we can carry. I was also informed that Shannon knew the law and that the Park Rangers were Law enforcement Officers and they knew the law. Shannon also said she could not carry at work and she has a CPL I attempted to tell her about Cherry v Seattle and gave up when I was again informed that she and the Rangers knew the law. I did not think fast enough to ask what RCW or WAC would I be cited for if I was carrying a firearm on the Centennial Trail

The Park Ranger Audra Sims is off today but Shannon was kind enough to give me her cell phone number 509-979-6595 I am assuming this is a state cell phone but I will wait to call her tomorrow when she is at work.

So, an administrative branch of state gov. is not compelled to follow state law? Does that mean they are a separate legislative body?

EMNofSeattle · May 7, 2013

Jeff Hayes said:
OK I got a hold of Shannon (SP) at The Riverside State Park office who insists that their no firearms law/rule is legal because they are the State and the State is not subject to RCW 9.41.290 and 300 and can make any firearms laws/rules they please. I pointed out that we have a camp out at Confluence State Park every year and her response was that is a special event so we can carry. I was also informed that Shannon knew the law and that the Park Rangers were Law enforcement Officers and they knew the law. Shannon also said she could not carry at work and she has a CPL I attempted to tell her about Cherry v Seattle and gave up when I was again informed that she and the Rangers knew the law. I did not think fast enough to ask what RCW or WAC would I be cited for if I was carrying a firearm on the Centennial Trail

The Park Ranger Audra Sims is off today but Shannon was kind enough to give me her cell phone number 509-979-6595 I am assuming this is a state cell phone but I will wait to call her tomorrow when she is at work.

Did Shannon think of all this on the fly? or did someone else tell her this on the other end?

I think that when they referenced "The State of Washington" in 9.41.290 they meant the legislature, and the legislature chose not to include state parks in 9.41.300. Therefore there is no law being violated. If that were the case then any state agency or state employee can suddenly say "no guns here" any trooper can just declare "I'm the state since the state signs my paychecks, no guns on the state capitol campus" and claim it was legal....

The "State" has to have legal authority in order to cite someone, and that authority is vested in the legislature....

Jeff Hayes · May 7, 2013

Amicus said:
So, an administrative branch of state gov. is not compelled to follow state law? Does that mean they are a separate legislative body?

Well typical of LE Shannon thinks she and the State are above the law. In her defense she answered the phone so likely she just administrative staff. The attitude is what bothered me not willing to listen to a mere citizen about his concerns but very willing to tell me and very expecting me to immediately fall right in to line with with what ever she said how dare I question her type of thing. I will discuss that with her boss later.

Amicus · May 7, 2013

Jeff Hayes said:
Well typical of LE Shannon thinks she and the State are above the law. In her defense she answered the phone so likely she just administrative staff. The attitude is what bothered me not willing to listen to a mere citizen about his concerns but very willing to tell me and very expecting me to immediately fall right in to line with with what ever she said how dare I question her type of thing. I will discuss that with her boss later.

In preparation for a repeat performance, how do you guys usually handle these things...take em to the wall, or let it go?

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