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Thread: HB 436 Wording

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    HB 436 Wording

    I was reading HB 436 today and came upon the following:


    " 3. (1) All federal acts, laws, orders, rules, and regulations, whether past, present, or future, which infringe on the people's right to keep and bear arms as guaranteed by the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution and Article I, Section 23 of the Missouri Constitution shall be invalid in this state, shall not be recognized by this state, shall be specifically rejected by this state, and shall be considered null and void and of no effect in this state.
    (2) Such federal acts, laws, orders, rules, and regulations include, but are not limited to:
    (a) The provisions of the federal Gun Control Act of 1934;
    (b) The provisions of the federal Gun Control Act of 1968;"

    Does that mean such laws as not owning a submachine gun without a proper license ( as outlined in Gun Control Act of 1934) will no longer be enforced in the state of Missouri? I must be missing something...

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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    My understanding is, if it is made and sold in Missouri and stays in Missouri it is not subject to Federal Law. The idea is "States Rights".

    Quote Originally Posted by logunowner View Post
    I was reading HB 436 today and came upon the following:


    " 3. (1) All federal acts, laws, orders, rules, and regulations, whether past, present, or future, which infringe on the people's right to keep and bear arms as guaranteed by the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution and Article I, Section 23 of the Missouri Constitution shall be invalid in this state, shall not be recognized by this state, shall be specifically rejected by this state, and shall be considered null and void and of no effect in this state.
    (2) Such federal acts, laws, orders, rules, and regulations include, but are not limited to:
    (a) The provisions of the federal Gun Control Act of 1934;
    (b) The provisions of the federal Gun Control Act of 1968;"

    Does that mean such laws as not owning a submachine gun without a proper license ( as outlined in Gun Control Act of 1934) will no longer be enforced in the state of Missouri? I must be missing something...
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
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    Thanks for your post. That is what I was missing, you are exactly right. I joined the forum after meeting you at the Senate Hearing on 436. If you remember my wife and I were there.

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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by logunowner View Post
    Thanks for your post. That is what I was missing, you are exactly right. I joined the forum after meeting you at the Senate Hearing on 436. If you remember my wife and I were there.
    I do remember. I am so appreciative of all who took the time to go. This is the week it will pass the House and go to the Governor. I hope after the bill actually becomes law someone will plan an of event soem place central like Columbia or jefferson City the weekend after the bill becomes law. It would be great to see so many Ocers in one place.
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mspgunner View Post
    I do remember. I am so appreciative of all who took the time to go. This is the week it will pass the House and go to the Governor. I hope after the bill actually becomes law someone will plan an of event soem place central like Columbia or jefferson City the weekend after the bill becomes law. It would be great to see so many Ocers in one place.
    That would be a great idea. I live at the lake but would be willing to do what I could. Would it be as simple as starting a thread? I would be willing to get a hold of like Ria's in Jeff City and making arrangements for a group to show up after their lunch hour traffic has cleared. Thoughts?

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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by logunowner View Post
    That would be a great idea. I live at the lake but would be willing to do what I could. Would it be as simple as starting a thread? I would be willing to get a hold of like Ria's in Jeff City and making arrangements for a group to show up after their lunch hour traffic has cleared. Thoughts?
    There is a lot of time! The bill, if it passes won't go into effect till Aug. 28th! Personally I like Ria's, that weekend migh tbe good. I wouldn't jump on it yet!
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mspgunner View Post
    There is a lot of time! The bill, if it passes won't go into effect till Aug. 28th! Personally I like Ria's, that weekend migh tbe good. I wouldn't jump on it yet!
    Just let me know if you need help, I'm just a Johnny come lately that is willing to help if I can.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mspgunner View Post
    someone will plan an of event soem place central like Columbia or jefferson City the weekend after the bill becomes law. It would be great to see so many Ocers in one place.
    I was thinking about trying to make something happen in St Louis, since it'd be relatively new ground for OC. But I understand it's also a drive that a lot of people here can't make, so COMO or Lake Ozark or something would be more central.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oramac View Post
    I was thinking about trying to make something happen in St Louis, since it'd be relatively new ground for OC. But I understand it's also a drive that a lot of people here can't make, so COMO or Lake Ozark or something would be more central.
    Oh man, please do. I don't want to be the only guy (with my girlfriend, the only gal) in St. Louis carrying openly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oramac View Post
    I was thinking about trying to make something happen in St Louis, since it'd be relatively new ground for OC. But I understand it's also a drive that a lot of people here can't make, so COMO or Lake Ozark or something would be more central.
    "We", the gang of radical OCers who thought up this crazy freedom idea, mostly from the STL area are planning to get together the night of the 27th of August and come midnight to ring in the 28th (If the law gos into effect that day) at perhaps Steak-N-Shake in Maryland Heights were we met many times before Maryland Heights prohibited OC. The place was good about it, never had any problems. It is centrally located for STL and St. Charles Co. people with easy access for both. There is a lot of time still....... But it seems like a reasonable place to ring in our new found freedom.
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mspgunner View Post
    "We", the gang of radical OCers who thought up this crazy freedom idea, mostly from the STL area are planning to get together the night of the 27th of August and come midnight to ring in the 28th (If the law gos into effect that day) at perhaps Steak-N-Shake in Maryland Heights were we met many times before Maryland Heights prohibited OC. The place was good about it, never had any problems. It is centrally located for STL and St. Charles Co. people with easy access for both. There is a lot of time still....... But it seems like a reasonable place to ring in our new found freedom.
    Midnight Milkshake? I'll be there! Might even dust off the ole Camaro for it!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mspgunner View Post
    "We", the gang of radical OCers who thought up this crazy freedom idea, mostly from the STL area are planning to get together the night of the 27th of August and come midnight to ring in the 28th (If the law gos into effect that day) at perhaps Steak-N-Shake in Maryland Heights were we met many times before Maryland Heights prohibited OC. The place was good about it, never had any problems. It is centrally located for STL and St. Charles Co. people with easy access for both. There is a lot of time still....... But it seems like a reasonable place to ring in our new found freedom.
    Just make sure all those "OCers" have a valid CCW or they will be in violation of the the local prohibition on openly displayed firearms. Enjoy your new priviledge, you worked hard for it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mspgunner View Post
    But it seems like a reasonable place to ring in our new found freedom.
    Not to split hairs or anything, but doesn't the new law say that you have to have a permit or endorsement to carry in cities that ban OC? While I think this is a great step for Missouri, OC is still regulated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by acmariner99 View Post
    Not to split hairs or anything, but doesn't the new law say that you have to have a permit or endorsement to carry in cities that ban OC? While I think this is a great step for Missouri, OC is still regulated.
    Does no one around here know how to celebrate a win?

    Nothing against you personally, it's just that I keep seeing this posted. Obviously we all know that it is still slightly regulated. But steps are what get you to where you are going.

    You can look at a tall staircase and take one step at a time until you get to the top, or you can just say "I can jump straight to the top from the bottom". Well, the end result of that method is that you make it half the way up with your jump, smash your face on the banister because you over reached, and then slide all the way back down to the bottom where you originally where, left all bloody and bruised and having accomplished nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Boy View Post
    Does no one around here know how to celebrate a win?

    Nothing against you personally, it's just that I keep seeing this posted. Obviously we all know that it is still slightly regulated. But steps are what get you to where you are going.

    You can look at a tall staircase and take one step at a time until you get to the top, or you can just say "I can jump straight to the top from the bottom". Well, the end result of that method is that you make it half the way up with your jump, smash your face on the banister because you over reached, and then slide all the way back down to the bottom where you originally where, left all bloody and bruised and having accomplished nothing.

    How, exactly, is this a win for OC? OC does not require a permit in MO. OC does not require a background check in MO. OC does not require you be fingerprinted in MO. OC does not require you renew anything every 3 years in MO. OC does not require any of these things in MO because OC in MO is a right . This is the same bill that I opposed last year, because all it does is expand the privileges of CCW holders. It does not protect the rights of MO citizens to exercise their rights unhindered. Please explain how having to pay to exercise rights is a win in your book.

    As far as "steps" go, those who worked to get this done have said their work is done. They are satisfied with this legislation and will see no reason to go for full preemption. Unfortunately, they have left real OC in a hole it will have to climb out of. How much harder will it now be to get legislators to listen about preemption, when in their minds the problem has already been addressed?

    So, please forgive those of us who opposed this legislation last year, if we aren't doing cartwheels now. It's just that our true goal may have been pushed farther away in the name of progress.
    Last edited by SavageOne; 05-14-2013 at 05:15 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SavageOne View Post
    How, exactly, is this a win for OC? OC does not require a permit in MO. OC does not require a background check in MO. OC does not require you be fingerprinted in MO. OC does not require you renew anything every 3 years in MO. OC does not require any of these things in MO because OC in MO is a right . This is the same bill that I opposed last year, because all it does is expand the privileges of CCW holders. It does not protect the rights of MO citizens to exercise their rights unhindered. Please explain how having to pay to exercise rights is a win in your book.

    As far as "steps" go, those who worked to get this done have said their work is done. They are satisfied with this legislation and will see no reason to go for full preemption. Unfortunately, they have left real OC in a hole it will have to climb out of. How much harder will it now be to get legislators to listen about preemption, when in their minds the problem has already been addressed?

    So, please forgive those of us who opposed this legislation last year, if we aren't doing cartwheels now. It's just that our true goal may have been pushed farther away in the name of progress.

    The wheels move slow in JC . I'd suggest getting in there now, making contacts, and getting your foot in the door. It ain't easy, but I'm sure you have thought about all that before stepping up to the plate to gain us our rights back. This year we got what we could. People will be able to OC in the cities that prohibit such with a CCW. That's more than we had, and I consider more than we had progress. Is it perfect? Not by a long shot. Am I "happy" with it? Not as happy as I would be if it were as it should be, legal everywhere. I am happy we got "something" , and like was said, it takes steps, you don't just jump to the top.

    I'm sorry "we" didn't get what "you" wanted, but I don't recall "you" ever being in the hearings or the meetings we had before going in to the hearings. I'm bad with names, so forgive me if I overlooked you one or more of those times, but that would have been the time to discuss with the Senators, in their office, what "you" wanted. They would tell "you" what was possible, like they did us.

    "You" can sit on a forum and complain "you" didn't get what "you" wanted, or "you" can go try to get what "you" can. There are a lot of internet commandos here that like to complain about what "they" want, but are too damn lazy to actually do something about it. I'm sure you are not the latter since "you" seem so passionate about the cause.

    From your post, I'm assuming next year we will be getting updates from "you" on the next step in open carry.

    Thanks, and good luck.
    Last edited by Festus_Hagen; 05-14-2013 at 05:49 PM.

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    Re: HB 436 Wording

    Quote Originally Posted by SavageOne View Post
    How, exactly, is this a win for OC? OC does not require a permit in MO. OC does not require a background check in MO. OC does not require you be fingerprinted in MO. OC does not require you renew anything every 3 years in MO. OC does not require any of these things in MO because OC in MO is a right . This is the same bill that I opposed last year, because all it does is expand the privileges of CCW holders. It does not protect the rights of MO citizens to exercise their rights unhindered. Please explain how having to pay to exercise rights is a win in your book.

    As far as "steps" go, those who worked to get this done have said their work is done. They are satisfied with this legislation and will see no reason to go for full preemption. Unfortunately, they have left real OC in a hole it will have to climb out of. How much harder will it now be to get legislators to listen about preemption, when in their minds the problem has already been addressed?

    So, please forgive those of us who opposed this legislation last year, if we aren't doing cartwheels now. It's just that our true goal may have been pushed farther away in the name of progress.
    Would you please let me know where you can legally OC in Missouri on August 27th, that you will not be on August 28th? If there is no such place, then you have been left uninjured. But, there will be 163,000 of us that will be able to carry in places we weren't before. Is it perfect, no. The question is what are you going to do about it?

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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Exactly why I wil no longer post on the MSSA forum, whine, complain and "WE WANT , WE WANT". Get off you @ss and go to jefferson City and tell them what "WE WANT". We did and we took what we could get. Yes, there was a premption Bill that passed committee and went no where!!! This bill does nothing to infringe on open carriers where OC is legal without a CCW. It does allow OC where OC is prohibited by local laws.

    If you think you can do better get your tail down to jefferson City and see what "WE WANT, WE WANT can get. There is a good chnace for premption next year if you "WE WANT, WE WANT", WILL WORK FOR IT.
    OC preemption is th enext logical step, do hundreds of hours of volunteer wwork, contribute a lot of money to candiadtes, go to fund raisers.... You may just get want you want. It simply may happennext year regardless because it is not an election year and the same group of players will still be there.
    HB4376 is NOT a done deal yet, it is not a law:
    Status of HB436 (2nd amendment preservation act): To the Governor and

    This from The Speaker of the House to me today (FYI)...
    Bills that have been truly Agreed to and Finally Passed are signed by Speakers of the House and Senate on May 22nd and then go to the Governor for signature or veto. The Governor has 45 days after the end of session to sign or return a bill. The effective date of signed bills is 90 days after the end of session for bills. Bills that have already been signed by the Governor are those that the Speakers have selected and then have been sent to the Governor. I hope this makes sense. Please let me know if you have any further questions.


    Festus, myself and three others worked like dogs, took time off of work and did the best we could to get what we could. Speaking for myself, if this becomes law I'm done with working for 2A rights in Jefferson City. The whiners and crying team can go on with "WE WANT, WE WANT". If nothing else WE WANT you have not made friends with the "WE DOs WE DOs", who worked for three years to get the amendment we are working on.
    Good luck WE WANTS............



    Quote Originally Posted by Festus_Hagen View Post
    The wheels move slow in JC . I'd suggest getting in there now, making contacts, and getting your foot in the door. It ain't easy, but I'm sure you have thought about all that before stepping up to the plate to gain us our rights back. This year we got what we could. People will be able to OC in the cities that prohibit such with a CCW. That's more than we had, and I consider more than we had progress. Is it perfect? Not by a long shot. Am I "happy" with it? Not as happy as I would be if it were as it should be, legal everywhere. I am happy we got "something" , and like was said, it takes steps, you don't just jump to the top.

    I'm sorry "we" didn't get what "you" wanted, but I don't recall "you" ever being in the hearings or the meetings we had before going in to the hearings. I'm bad with names, so forgive me if I overlooked you one or more of those times, but that would have been the time to discuss with the Senators, in their office, what "you" wanted. They would tell "you" what was possible, like they did us.

    "You" can sit on a forum and complain "you" didn't get what "you" wanted, or "you" can go try to get what "you" can. There are a lot of internet commandos here that like to complain about what "they" want, but are too damn lazy to actually do something about it. I'm sure you are not the latter since "you" seem so passionate about the cause.

    From your post, I'm assuming next year we will be getting updates from "you" on the next step in open carry.

    Thanks, and good luck.
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
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    Regular Member Big Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SavageOne View Post
    How, exactly, is this a win for OC? OC does not require a permit in MO. OC does not require a background check in MO. OC does not require you be fingerprinted in MO. OC does not require you renew anything every 3 years in MO. OC does not require any of these things in MO because OC in MO is a right . This is the same bill that I opposed last year, because all it does is expand the privileges of CCW holders. It does not protect the rights of MO citizens to exercise their rights unhindered. Please explain how having to pay to exercise rights is a win in your book.

    As far as "steps" go, those who worked to get this done have said their work is done. They are satisfied with this legislation and will see no reason to go for full preemption. Unfortunately, they have left real OC in a hole it will have to climb out of. How much harder will it now be to get legislators to listen about preemption, when in their minds the problem has already been addressed?

    So, please forgive those of us who opposed this legislation last year, if we aren't doing cartwheels now. It's just that our true goal may have been pushed farther away in the name of progress.
    OC still DOES NOT REQUIRE A CCW to exercise the right. Any city that previously did not have laws against OC will be exactly the same as they were before the law. For example, if in Kansas City and Open Carrying, if I get asked for ID I can still say no, because OC is not illegal there. However if I'm in some city like Maplewood that has banned Open Carry, I can still carry. If the cop asks, I will show him my CCW.

    Would we prefer it to be completely legal without a ccw in all states? Yes, but that goes back to the steps we're taking.

    The only difference will be open carrier's EXPANDED rights to carry against city ordinances that ban OC, as long as they have a CCW.

    So, yep, you're right, us being able to carry openly in any city in Missouri is definitely a step backwards :boggled eyes:

    Tell me how the fact that we can now OC in cities that previously banned it (after law passes) hinder any rights of OC'ers?

    Did you read the bill before you posted here? My guess is no, and that you simply assumed you must have a CCW to OC in ANY part of MO, which is not true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SavageOne View Post
    So, please forgive those of us who opposed this legislation last year, if we aren't doing cartwheels now. It's just that our true goal may have been pushed farther away in the name of progress.
    Are you mental ?
    Do you have some reading comprehension issues ?

    The right to Open Carry in Missouri has been EXPANDED into areas heretofore prohibited.
    Is it Constitutional Carry - No, but perhaps you would like to spearhead that ?

    IF NOT, please **** and say THANK YOU to those who have worked so hard on your UNGRATEFUL behalf. They have brought you a step closer to what YOU want. Idiot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SavageOne View Post
    As far as "steps" go, those who worked to get this done have said their work is done. They are satisfied with this legislation and will see no reason to go for full preemption.
    I do believe my own postings have made it more than clear that this is an out right lie. I would also like to be very sure that you are clear, I mean BOTH sentences are lies.

    There are even photos posted of several of us who worked diligently to see 21.750 changed this year and we got it further than ever before, out of committee.

    Go whine some where else, ain't got no cheese for you here. Want to step up to the plate and take a swing?I have offered to stand beside and help anyone who does.

    It is listening to folks bitch that is running advocates away, it makes one wonder why they even tried.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMTD View Post
    I do believe my own postings have made it more than clear that this is an out right lie. I would also like to be very sure that you are clear, I mean BOTH sentences are lies.

    There are even photos posted of several of us who worked diligently to see 21.750 changed this year and we got it further than ever before, out of committee.

    Go whine some where else, ain't got no cheese for you here. Want to step up to the plate and take a swing?I have offered to stand beside and help anyone who does.

    It is listening to folks bitch that is running advocates away, it makes one wonder why they even tried.
    Well Said!

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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMTD View Post
    I do believe my own postings have made it more than clear that this is an out right lie. I would also like to be very sure that you are clear, I mean BOTH sentences are lies.

    There are even photos posted of several of us who worked diligently to see 21.750 changed this year and we got it further than ever before, out of committee.

    Go whine some where else, ain't got no cheese for you here. Want to step up to the plate and take a swing?I have offered to stand beside and help anyone who does.

    It is listening to folks bitch that is running advocates away, it makes one wonder why they even tried.
    Savage: I would give advice, but as far as engaing in the movement that brought us to the point of where we are, NOT GONNA HAPPEN.
    You panty wetters who whine and bitch just pissed me off.
    This was darn near a full time job for the past four months. And "you" don't like it? Welcome to the real world.

    The OC amendment in HB436 does nothing to hinder the rights of people who now OC without issues. It grants this right to people who wish to OC in a municipality that prohibits but they must have a CCW endorsement, and cannot carry a long gun. Preemption would be better and most likey would pass next year if it is sought. Now stop whining and go to work to get it done, the clock is ticking and thanks to this bill you are one step closer.
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
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    well said MSPGUNNER, some people will NVR be happy, so please on behalf of everyone that appreciates everything you and your peeps did we THANK YOU! Anyone with a real since of realism understands how hard you guys worked and I for one know I could not even take off work let alone spend the countless hours you guys have put in including possibly putting family activites aside, outings, trips or anything else.

    Again, THANKS!

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    WANT DO WANT DO WANT DO WANT DO WANT DO WANT DO WANT DO
    - the endless bickering here. Maybe I can make that my sig!

    It's understandable if someone believes that getting a permit to exercise 2A is a bad thing. That's a political and possibly a tactical viewpoint. There are valid reasons for believing that way. It's not just about do vs want, it's a different belief about what to do and what to want. Deal with it. You could compare it with discussions the Founders were having when starting this country, and they were arguing on some issues. (I don't think they were calling each other schoolyard insults so much, but I guess things were different then.) Currently you're in a position to taunt, but be careful telling all your opponents to do something, or they may follow your advice and successfully accomplish something you don't agree with!

    That's how I originally felt about permits - I detested them and felt that I should not ask the government for permission. I still feel that way deep down. However, after seeing this effort I decided that it could be a very good thing for daily life and a good step towards the ideal IF people don't forget to keep pursuing (keep WANTING) true 2A carry. But the more urgent reason I support it this year is because America needs to see OC in order to affect the national public sentiment about guns. OC is limited with a patchwork of different laws, and the more people OC, the more we condition the public.

    So I support the view that we should be vigilant about the danger of needing permits to exercise rights, but I believe it's very helpful to partially destroy all the local ordinance against OC and make it easier for people to carry. Probably it helps us to have some people that hate permits to the extent they wouldn't give in and get one to save their life, and others who take a reasonable compromise to get a step closer from where we were to where we need to be. That way we have progress and we have vigilance. That makes me happy. If anyone wants to flame me or use 3rd grade type communication to deride me because I have some sympathy with both sides on this particular point, be my guest and make my day. (Yes, I will do something. No, I will not shut up. You're not my boss or my wife, and we're not in 3rd grade so I don't care about any insults. Sorry to disappoint. I freely express my beliefs. I do tip my hat to those who get things done, though.)

    This is a forum, it's a place to talk. It's both funny and sad to see people spend so much energy trying to suppress other views when they are (yeah I know, I know, sue me/bite me) on the general "same side" of being pro-gun. If that's what gets you off, so be it, but don't be surprised and lose control of bodily functions if you fail to shut up everyone who doesn't agree on some of those points! It's good advice to DO something, but unrealistic to expect to think you can shut down every WANT that is posted on a web forum. (Review what a web forum is.) Unless you can influence the forum administration or clamp down on free speech somehow, you'll just have to live with it.

    Hopefully some of those WANTS will become DOs in future! Every DO started off as a WANT. That's how life works. (Unless you came out the womb in a senator's office, bill in hand, and started talking about it as soon as your head poked out - in which case I withdraw my argument - I gotta admit that's not wasting any time getting on the DO wagon.) Otherwise everyone began WANTING, and the person you call stooopid may pass a bill a few years from now. Maybe they'll do it in 2 years instead of 3. However long it takes, a good action is a good thing, and it starts with a good desire.

    Besides, some thinking, including some talking and arguing about what is RIGHT, should come BEFORE taking action. Doing is very good, but an endless mantra of DO DO instead of normal discussion is in danger of becoming ... "DOO-DOO". People have to get the right idea first, then pursue it. Going after a half-baked idea can be dangerous.

    Meanwhile, if interested people find this forum and see 2A supporters acting like monkeys at each other (and yes, I have seen real monkeys up close and personal roaming on the streets, in another part of the world, and yes it is looks just about like what I see here sometimes with the bickering) is it really helping the cause? Is it really the way to be a role model in both speech and action?

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