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Thread: Expandable batons

  1. #1
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    Expandable batons

    What can anybody tell me on the laws for e/b's, someone close to me is working for a security company and they have issued him one of these items. My understanding is they are a big no-no for anyone other than leo's. His employer contends he can carry at work and have it in his car to n from work. Thanks in advance.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not aware of any state law that restricts them, since they don't really fit the definition of bludgeon.

    However, there most certainly isn't preemption against cities regulating them for the average non JBT. I have a couple, and since returning to this wanna be free state, they sit in my safe along with my daggers.
    Last edited by Michigander; 05-04-2013 at 11:05 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not aware of any state law that restricts them, since they don't really fit the definition of bludgeon.

    However, there most certainly isn't preemption against cities regulating them for the average non JBT. I have a couple, and since returning to this wanna be free state, they sit in my safe along with my daggers.
    Ostensibly, they are illegal bludgeons - I don't believe this has ever been tested on appeals, but I have seen circuit cases where people have been convicted of a 750.224 violation for batons.

    I have no method of citing this other than scanning in journals and attaching as PDFs.

    I think it's as stupid as being charged with CCW for carrying openly IWB, but that's the case law we've been dealt.

    So I would only bring batons into the state at your own risk!

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    It would be worth lobbying to get less and non lethal weapons made legal and preempted if we aren't going to get constitutional carry any time soon. I almost had to shoot a man last year (a convicted felon no less), and wouldn't have even had to draw if I could have had a baton with me. Our laws do nothing less than put lives in danger needlessly.
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    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    It would be worth lobbying to get less and non lethal weapons made legal and preempted if we aren't going to get constitutional carry any time soon. I almost had to shoot a man last year (a convicted felon no less), and wouldn't have even had to draw if I could have had a baton with me. Our laws do nothing less than put lives in danger needlessly.
    I carried an expandable baton as a security officer, and I can tell you that if it is used improperly it most certainly can be considered a lethal weapon. A baton takes training to use correctly.
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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezerharden View Post
    I carried an expandable baton as a security officer, and I can tell you that if it is used improperly it most certainly can be considered a lethal weapon. A baton takes training to use correctly.
    The main issue is hitting someone in the head. Sure, knowing soft spots than cause pain and not so much damage is good, and indeed even the packaging that comes with ASPs is a good start, but as a person who isn't out to arrest someone and instead just wants to stay safe, not caring on a moral level whether someone trying to kill me lives or dies, I have always figured while carrying an ASP that I'll go for a couple body shots, and if that doesn't stop it, it's straight for a head shot. This gives an assailant vastly better odds of living than a gun, and better effect than the short range or one shot deal of tasers, as well as no risk of cross contamination of eye irritants.

    Though I never did have to deploy a baton on people, I can say with good certainty that they work on dogs, including very large ones, at least if you're not using one of the shorter ones. And no, I never did kill a dog with a baton, including with head strikes.
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    Thanks guys.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Re: Expandabl

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasher View Post
    What can anybody tell me on the laws for e/b's, someone close to me is working for a security company and they have issued him one of these items. My understanding is they are a big no-no for anyone other than leo's. His employer contends he can carry at work and have it in his car to n from work. Thanks in advance.


    Although an unpublished opinion, it appears the Dangerous Weapons law MAY NOT apply in regards to an expandable baton.

    http://law.justia.com/cases/michigan...12213-opn.html
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    Interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Although an unpublished opinion, it appears the Dangerous Weapons law MAY NOT apply in regards to an expandable baton.

    http://law.justia.com/cases/michigan...12213-opn.html
    From the linked case, bold emphasis is mine:

    The term "bludgeon" is not defined in [ 750.224(1)]. CJI2d 11.29 defines bludgeon as "a short club, usually weighted at one end or bigger at one end than the other, and designed for use as a weapon." See also People v Malik, 70 Mich App 133; 245 N.W.2d 434 (1976). Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary (1974) defines bludgeon as "a short stick that usually has one thick or loaded end and is used as a weapon."


    The object involved in this case does not possess the distinguishing characteristic of having a weighted or thicker end. Rather, the object is one typically referred to as a "nightstick" that may be purchased in police equipment stores or other similar stores. We conclude that the instrument seized from defendant's vehicle was not a "bludgeon" within the meaning of the statute, and, therefore, we reverse defendant's
    conditional guilty plea.
    When I read "usually" in that definition it seems to me that a bludgeon is not required to have those characteristics to be considered a bludgeon.

    I can definitely see a prosecutor pushing that point in court, I would.

    Bronson
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  12. #12
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    From the linked case, bold emphasis is mine:



    When I read "usually" in that definition it seems to me that a bludgeon is not required to have those characteristics to be considered a bludgeon.

    I can definitely see a prosecutor pushing that point in court, I would.

    Bronson
    As a disinterested party, I would read "usual" to mean "as commonly encountered" ie.. there would need to be some exception in the particular facts of the case to warrant inclusion in the group designated "dangerous weapons".

    I would utilize your definition were I a prosecutor;were I a defense attorney, I would argue that an expandable baton does not meet the definition of a dangerous weapon.

    Hence the use of the word "MAY"... in my post.

    The notion that, "because 750.224(1) specifically lists the objects it prohibits, a conviction under the statute cannot be based on the possession of an item that the statute does not specifically mention", has been supported time and time again in court opinion*. The fact that some the items listed contain very similar attributes... in some cases a single item may even possibly fall under 2 or more definitions of a "dangerous weapon" indicates that the legislature most likely wanted to be very specific when defining what constitutes a "dangerous weapon".


    usual (yzh-l) adj.
    1. Commonly encountered, experienced, or observed: the usual summer heat.
    2. Regularly or customarily used: ended the speech with the usual expressions of thanks.
    3. In conformity with regular practice or procedure: Come at the usual time.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    The definition of Bludgeon was brought to law to regulate the use of black jacks, saps, brass knuckles, or any device meant to strike and cause injury that employes lead/heavy weighted metal in the form of shot, powder or solid ect. Yes this makes the SAP gloves worn by some Police (knuckles filled with lead powder) also illegal.

    An A.S.P. or expandable baton is not classified as a Bludgeon in law. It is classified as a "tactical" Baton, like the PR-24, and not a billy club.

    Now will some idiot prosecutor try to fool the legal system by knowingly trying to classify an A.S.P. as a bludgeon? Yea I can see that happen.

    I will still carry my A.S.P. Baton because if I have a chance, I would rather smack the wrist of an idiot who tries something, rather than use deadly force if I am allowed that opportunity to not use deadly force. It would seem the court system would see that as a more preferable outcome, but until recent history we saw Tasers as illegal.

    See below the Bludgeon must contain lead, or be weighted with metal. This was the legal definition since time and memorial and still is in fact. A club is not a bludgeon and a Bludgeon is not a club in "legal" terms. We the people most be VERY careful to not interchange terms because if we do one day those fuzzy legal terms can and will be used against us. This is no different than gun owners buying into the term assault rifle which are defined as AUTOMATIC weapons not Semi Auto, yet gun owners in an act of stupidity call the semi auto assault weapons, and cause problems for ourselves. If we are here to educate others then we are required by the rule of common sense to call a spade a spade and a shovel a shovel and not mix the two into one. Definitions are very important in our fight.


    see definition from law dictionary:

    What is BLUDGEON?

    a dangerous weapon or a club made of a heavy wood that sometimes has "lead" at its centre. <---Note I emphasized the "lead" part with " "

    http://thelawdictionary.org/bludgeon/



    http://caselaw.findlaw.com/il-court-...s/1506098.html

    We look to the dictionary as well. Instead of bludgeon, we first turn to the definition of “blackjack.” Black's Law Dictionary defines a “blackjack” in several ways, including as “[a] short bludgeon consisting of a heavy head, as of metal, on an elastic shaft or with a flexible handle.” Black's Law Dictionary 154 (5th ed.1979). Thus, a blackjack meeting this specification is a bludgeon. Not all bludgeons are blackjacks, but all blackjacks consisting of a heavy head, as of metal, on an elastic shaft or with a flexible handle are bludgeons. In essence, a blackjack is a specialty type of bludgeon. The common definition of “bludgeon” simply does not specifically list this subset of bludgeons. Even Black's Law Dictionary defines “bludgeon” in the general sense as “[a] heavy club or stick used as a weapon, commonly weighted in one end by metal.” Black's Law Dictionary 157 (5th ed.1979).



    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    From the linked case, bold emphasis is mine:



    When I read "usually" in that definition it seems to me that a bludgeon is not required to have those characteristics to be considered a bludgeon.

    I can definitely see a prosecutor pushing that point in court, I would.

    Bronson
    Last edited by alphamale; 05-06-2013 at 11:21 AM.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    The bottom line is that we don't have preemption, and a gun rights activist could very easily get railroaded on it.

    While we have a severely anti gun governor who has no problems legalizing tasers, we really should be contemplating trying to lobby to get batons, no, all impact weapons and eye irritants, thoroughly legalized and preempted.
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