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Thread: Armed robbery video - learn from this!

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Armed robbery video - learn from this!

    This event happened in 2012, but the surveillance video has now been released. A man armed with a sawed off rifle in his coat sleeve attempted to rob a Wisconsin grocery store. A concealed carry permit holder was armed and stopped the robbery.

    What is interesting to note is that the permit holder was carrying but did not have a round chambered, and had the gun's safety on. A very crucial moment comes at 1.43 in the video. The permit holder can be seen moving into position. He has already made a decision in his mind to engage the armed suspect. The problem is, as typically happens in the heat of the moment, he did not remember to chamber a round. He can be seen taking aim and coming up on a "dead trigger"; the result of not having a round chambered.

    He can then be seen chambering a round and engaging the armed suspect. This is why we teach that you MUST carry with a round chambered. Even though he had a few seconds to pre-plan his movements and defense, he still did not remember to chamber that first round in the heat of the moment. If you choose to carry with your gun's safety on, you need to practice disengaging that safety as you draw so that you are ready to fire when you come up on target. This gunfight was over in 3-4 seconds and occurred at the usual distance of less than 12 feet that we talk about. Notice too, that the the permit holder's stance resembles the "crouched Isosceles" that we teach (although he was in a confined area).

    http://www.gundigest.com/tactical-ge...&rid=233877112
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
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    some folks are worried about an accidental discharge happening .... unless you bought some POS Jamaican gun, that's usually not a real issue

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Good video Jim. Thanks!

    I'd like to point out that it's bad to have an empty chamber for someone concealing but it's suicidal for an open carrier.

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    Thanks for the analysis.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

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    Regular Member Jay Jacobs's Avatar
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    I've actually gone back and forth several times on keeping a round chambered or not. (Undoubtedly even worse than an empty chamber all the time)

    It's settled for me now though. Thanks.

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    Regular Member PFC HALE's Avatar
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    Armed robbery video - learn from this!

    always chambered. no booger hook on bangswitch= no AD/ND
    HOPE FOR THE BEST, EXPECT THE WORST, PREPARE FOR WAR

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    Thanks

    I have always carried with "one in the pipe" as they say, but I also carry with the safety on and have practiced drawing with it on so that it is a reflex to flip the safety off while drawing.

    Back in "the olden days" when I carried a revolver I never had an empty chamber in the cylinder. That never made any sense to me.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Good instructional video w/do's and don't's - could not determine if the BG was hit though. At that distance, I would expect swiss cheese.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    A few months ago, a rather spirited discussion about this very topic ensued on GlockTalk.com. I am giving the link if you are interested. Suffice it to say that a number of self-imagined gun gurus had a good time educating the masses in their lofty "knowledge?" (what is it they say about opinions??). I was a little dumbstruck at some of the responses. The answer to the question of whether or not you should carry a semi-automatic handgun with a chambered round will be answered should you ever find yourself in immediate and extreme need of it. And even then, you will only know if your decision was correct or wrong for that specific case.... if you survive.

    My opinion is simple. It is entirely a personal matter and a personal choice. I do carry chambered and wouldn't dream of doing otherwise. But I see nothing wrong with someone who chooses not to do this as it is their well being at stake... not mine. Let them do as they see fit.

    http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1467186
    Last edited by SouthernBoy; 05-06-2013 at 07:48 PM.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Good instructional video w/do's and don't's - could not determine if the BG was hit though. At that distance, I would expect swiss cheese.
    Question: if the assailant is exiting without having fired his gun and you choose to engage as this carrier did, would it leave you open to criminal charges? I guess more precisely asking if you don't engage during the entirety of the confrontation, and the bad guy is leaving, should you hold off on escalating the situation?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    --snipped--
    (what is it they say about opinions??).
    Opinions are like a**holes = some people have more than one of each.

    Their words may taste bitter and breath may smell funny too
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TraumaRN View Post
    Question: if the assailant is exiting without having fired his gun and you choose to engage as this carrier did, would it leave you open to criminal charges? I guess more precisely asking if you don't engage during the entirety of the confrontation, and the bad guy is leaving, should you hold off on escalating the situation?
    BG wasn't leaving - he was moving laterally across the store. There still existed serious threat to others - people have been shot and killed after criminals got what they want.

    That is not escalating. How would you feel if the BG had shot someone after you did nothing? I understand the dilemma - ymmv.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    BG wasn't leaving - he was moving laterally across the store. There still existed serious threat to others - people have been shot and killed after criminals got what they want.

    That is not escalating. How would you feel if the BG had shot someone after you did nothing? I understand the dilemma - ymmv.
    It is a dilemma and a heck of one at that. I, too, frequently wonder what I should or would do if caught up in something like this. The fact that the perp has a weapon pointed at someone and has clearly satisfied the other two criteria for the use of deadly force does not mean for certain that you now open fire... or does it? There are just too many things going on to get in your way of taking a solid decision like that. And being indecisive can and does get people killed.

    I'm afraid in today's world, there are no good answers to this one and I for one, am certainly open to hear what others have to say about this.
    Last edited by SouthernBoy; 05-07-2013 at 11:12 AM.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    At the 0:29 mark, isn't that a security guard walking off the screen to the right?

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blk97F150 View Post
    At the 0:29 mark, isn't that a security guard walking off the screen to the right?
    Yep....probably an unarmed "feel good" guard
    James Reynolds

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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Yep....probably an unarmed "feel good" guard
    He runs pretty fast though, doesn't he??

    lol

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TraumaRN View Post
    Question: if the assailant is exiting without having fired his gun and you choose to engage as this carrier did, would it leave you open to criminal charges? I guess more precisely asking if you don't engage during the entirety of the confrontation, and the bad guy is leaving, should you hold off on escalating the situation?
    I also thought that if he was leaving I would simply let him. I think being there, hearing what is being said would give you more information as what to do. If I open fire there is a high probability that he would still be capable of returning fire and that fire could hit me or another innocent bystander. So if no shots had been fired I probably woudn't have shot. Now we weren't there and didn't hear what he was saying so I think it was good that the person that did respond wasn't charged. If I had my gun out and ready before he was leaving I probably would have shot to protect whoever he was pointing the gun at (the clerk). You just have to remember that people trying to save others still get killed from time to time. :-(
    Last edited by 45acpForMe; 05-08-2013 at 01:51 PM.

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    Regular Member MainelyGlock's Avatar
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    Jesus, that guy took his time to engage. At that point, I also would have just let him leave. He seemed to be on his way out, and hadn't hurt anyone at that point. Not sure why people are afraid of accidental discharges nowadays, especially with a gun that has the safety engaged. The Mossad-draw might work for them, but it's a huge gamble if you ask me.
    Once more into the fray.
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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Yep....probably an unarmed "feel good" guard
    BTW, thanks for posting this video. It certainly does give some things to think about even more. I'm convinced there is no one-size-fits-all answer with this one. Too many variables to consider. Some good points have been raised.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Good video Jim. Thanks!

    I'd like to point out that it's bad to have an empty chamber for someone concealing but it's suicidal for an open carrier.
    +1 on both counts.

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    Re: Armed robbery video - learn from this!

    I dont think I would have engage, seems the guy was leaving

    Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    "We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training."
    ~Archilochus, ca 650 BC
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    "We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training."
    ~Archilochus, ca 650 BC
    People will rise to the occassion if capable, directly dependent upon the motivation.
    ~Grapeshotus, ca 2000 AD

    No good aim goes unrewarded.
    ~ibid

    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Marco;1936089 [/QUOTE]

    What was the distance? 10yds? The best I saw was 3 of 4 on the swinger plates and most were lucky to get 2 of 4. Yes I guess the average bad guy will have time to return fire and there will be only rare one shot stops. :-(

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