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Armed robbery video - learn from this!

ProShooter

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Mar 23, 2008
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www.ProactiveShooters.com, Richmond, Va., , USA
This event happened in 2012, but the surveillance video has now been released. A man armed with a sawed off rifle in his coat sleeve attempted to rob a Wisconsin grocery store. A concealed carry permit holder was armed and stopped the robbery.

What is interesting to note is that the permit holder was carrying but did not have a round chambered, and had the gun's safety on. A very crucial moment comes at 1.43 in the video. The permit holder can be seen moving into position. He has already made a decision in his mind to engage the armed suspect. The problem is, as typically happens in the heat of the moment, he did not remember to chamber a round. He can be seen taking aim and coming up on a "dead trigger"; the result of not having a round chambered.

He can then be seen chambering a round and engaging the armed suspect. This is why we teach that you MUST carry with a round chambered. Even though he had a few seconds to pre-plan his movements and defense, he still did not remember to chamber that first round in the heat of the moment. If you choose to carry with your gun's safety on, you need to practice disengaging that safety as you draw so that you are ready to fire when you come up on target. This gunfight was over in 3-4 seconds and occurred at the usual distance of less than 12 feet that we talk about. Notice too, that the the permit holder's stance resembles the "crouched Isosceles" that we teach (although he was in a confined area).

http://www.gundigest.com/tactical-g...milwaukee-robbery?et_mid=615863&rid=233877112
 

davidmcbeth

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Jan 14, 2012
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earth's crust
some folks are worried about an accidental discharge happening .... unless you bought some POS Jamaican gun, that's usually not a real issue
 

peter nap

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Oct 16, 2007
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Good video Jim. Thanks!

I'd like to point out that it's bad to have an empty chamber for someone concealing but it's suicidal for an open carrier.
 

Jay Jacobs

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Jul 15, 2012
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100
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Canton, GA
I've actually gone back and forth several times on keeping a round chambered or not. (Undoubtedly even worse than an empty chamber all the time)

It's settled for me now though. Thanks.
 

va_tazdad

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Feb 23, 2009
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1,162
Location
Richmond, Virginia, USA
Thanks

I have always carried with "one in the pipe" as they say, but I also carry with the safety on and have practiced drawing with it on so that it is a reflex to flip the safety off while drawing.

Back in "the olden days" when I carried a revolver I never had an empty chamber in the cylinder. That never made any sense to me.
 

Grapeshot

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Good instructional video w/do's and don't's - could not determine if the BG was hit though. At that distance, I would expect swiss cheese.
 

SouthernBoy

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May 12, 2007
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Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
A few months ago, a rather spirited discussion about this very topic ensued on GlockTalk.com. I am giving the link if you are interested. Suffice it to say that a number of self-imagined gun gurus had a good time educating the masses in their lofty "knowledge?" (what is it they say about opinions??). I was a little dumbstruck at some of the responses. The answer to the question of whether or not you should carry a semi-automatic handgun with a chambered round will be answered should you ever find yourself in immediate and extreme need of it. And even then, you will only know if your decision was correct or wrong for that specific case.... if you survive.

My opinion is simple. It is entirely a personal matter and a personal choice. I do carry chambered and wouldn't dream of doing otherwise. But I see nothing wrong with someone who chooses not to do this as it is their well being at stake... not mine. Let them do as they see fit.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1467186
 
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TraumaRN

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Aug 30, 2007
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82
Location
Central Virginia
Good instructional video w/do's and don't's - could not determine if the BG was hit though. At that distance, I would expect swiss cheese.

Question: if the assailant is exiting without having fired his gun and you choose to engage as this carrier did, would it leave you open to criminal charges? I guess more precisely asking if you don't engage during the entirety of the confrontation, and the bad guy is leaving, should you hold off on escalating the situation?
 

Grapeshot

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Question: if the assailant is exiting without having fired his gun and you choose to engage as this carrier did, would it leave you open to criminal charges? I guess more precisely asking if you don't engage during the entirety of the confrontation, and the bad guy is leaving, should you hold off on escalating the situation?

BG wasn't leaving - he was moving laterally across the store. There still existed serious threat to others - people have been shot and killed after criminals got what they want.

That is not escalating. How would you feel if the BG had shot someone after you did nothing? I understand the dilemma - ymmv.
 

SouthernBoy

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BG wasn't leaving - he was moving laterally across the store. There still existed serious threat to others - people have been shot and killed after criminals got what they want.

That is not escalating. How would you feel if the BG had shot someone after you did nothing? I understand the dilemma - ymmv.

It is a dilemma and a heck of one at that. I, too, frequently wonder what I should or would do if caught up in something like this. The fact that the perp has a weapon pointed at someone and has clearly satisfied the other two criteria for the use of deadly force does not mean for certain that you now open fire... or does it? There are just too many things going on to get in your way of taking a solid decision like that. And being indecisive can and does get people killed.

I'm afraid in today's world, there are no good answers to this one and I for one, am certainly open to hear what others have to say about this.
 
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45acpForMe

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Nov 21, 2008
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Yorktown, Virginia, USA
Question: if the assailant is exiting without having fired his gun and you choose to engage as this carrier did, would it leave you open to criminal charges? I guess more precisely asking if you don't engage during the entirety of the confrontation, and the bad guy is leaving, should you hold off on escalating the situation?

I also thought that if he was leaving I would simply let him. I think being there, hearing what is being said would give you more information as what to do. If I open fire there is a high probability that he would still be capable of returning fire and that fire could hit me or another innocent bystander. So if no shots had been fired I probably woudn't have shot. Now we weren't there and didn't hear what he was saying so I think it was good that the person that did respond wasn't charged. If I had my gun out and ready before he was leaving I probably would have shot to protect whoever he was pointing the gun at (the clerk). You just have to remember that people trying to save others still get killed from time to time. :-(
 
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MainelyGlock

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Feb 19, 2012
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615
Location
Portland, ME
Jesus, that guy took his time to engage. At that point, I also would have just let him leave. He seemed to be on his way out, and hadn't hurt anyone at that point. Not sure why people are afraid of accidental discharges nowadays, especially with a gun that has the safety engaged. The Mossad-draw might work for them, but it's a huge gamble if you ask me.
 
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