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Thread: 'Religion and Public Life in America.', R. R.Reno. Hillsdale College Imprimis,

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    'Religion and Public Life in America.', R. R.Reno. Hillsdale College Imprimis,

    The following is adapted from a speech delivered on February 20, 2013, at a Hillsdale College National Leadership Seminar in Bonita Springs, Florida.

    RELIGIOUS LIBERTY is being redefined in America, or at least many would like it to be. Our secular establishment wants to reduce the autonomy of religious institutions and limit the influence of faith in the public square. The reason is not hard to grasp. In America, “religion” largely means Christianity, and today our secular culture views orthodox Christian churches as troublesome, retrograde, and reactionary forces. They’re seen as anti-science, anti-gay, and anti-women—which is to say anti-progress as the Left defines progress. Not surprisingly, then, the Left believes society will be best served if Christians are limited in their influence on public life. And in the short run this view is likely to succeed. There will be many arguments urging Christians to keep their religion strictly religious rather than “political.” And there won’t just be arguments; there will be laws as well. We’re in the midst of climate change—one that’s getting colder and colder toward religion.
    http://www.hillsdale.edu/news/imprim...=2013&month=04
    The Arabic word dhimmi means non-Muslim. Under Muslim rule, non-Muslims were allowed to survive only insofar as they accepted Muslim dominance. Our times are not those times, and the secularism of the Nones is not Islam. Nevertheless, I think many powerful forces in America would like to impose a soft but real dhimmitude. The liberal and libertarian Nones will quarrel, as do the Shi’a and Sunni, but they will, I think, largely unify against the public influence of religion.

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    Insightful find.

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    How does the 2A impact this soft but real dhimmitude? Folks, even over at Hillsdale, tend to single out rights protections as if they are in a vacuum.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Do we not single out the Right to Keep and Bear openly carried handguns here?

    I think "emphasize" is a more apt word.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Libertarians don't decry the public influence of religion. Believe it or not there are christian libertarians. We decry the state sanctioning or granting any priviledges or letting it be used by a religion to further it's purposes.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Libertarians don't decry the public influence of religion. Believe it or not there are christian libertarians. We decry the state sanctioning or granting any priviledges or letting it be used by a religion to further it's purposes.
    Yep. That's us Christian Libertarians.
    Last edited by georg jetson; 05-08-2013 at 11:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    Yep. That's us Christian Libertarians.
    I'm not christian. I am strictly agnostic, I don't decry anyone that is though, as liberty oriented person I respect your personal beliefs, as most libertarians I know do too.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Do we not single out the Right to Keep and Bear openly carried handguns here?

    I think "emphasize" is a more apt word.
    Yes we "single out the Right to Keep and Bear openly carried handguns here", on OCDO because that is the focus and objective of the site owners. My apology is offered for my lack of clarity in my comment.

    We only have two, maybe three, exercisable rights. When I OC I know that I am exercising my rights that are protected by the 1A and 2A. I must rely on the state to not violate my 4A protection. If I get stupid and discard my 5A protection that is on me. If I get stupid I will require the services of a competent attorney to ensure that my 6-8 protections are not violated.

    What is ironic, to me anyway, is that each citizen, regardless of their position on "religion", singles out the part of just one protected right and attempts to use that snippet to advocate that the state infringe upon another citizen's snippet of the same protected right.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    'Religion and Public Life in America.', R. R.Reno. Hillsdale College Imprimis,

    I would disagree emphatically. Despite some rights not being allowed to be discussed here, almost all of them, within the rules are discussed. Furthermore, it is clear, from recent threads, that the owners will even allow discussion of topics specifically banned by the rules. So "emphasis" is the correct word.


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    You have me at a disadvantage Sir.

    What rights are we not permitted to discuss here on OCDO? Discussions regarding the implements that we may choose to possess in the exercising of our rights is limited by the site owners at their discretion. But, the discussion of our protected rights, that we can exercise, in my experience, has not been discouraged or prohibited.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    'Religion and Public Life in America.', R. R.Reno. Hillsdale College Imprimis,

    LGOC. However, that one, of late, is being permitted in certain threads.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

    <o>

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    I'm not christian. I am strictly agnostic, I don't decry anyone that is though, as liberty oriented person I respect your personal beliefs, as most libertarians I know do too.
    I wasn't implying that you were Christian. As a Christian I also ally myself with what is known today as "libertarian". Both of these things require that I keep all of my religion under my control and demand that the government stay out of it.

    BTW - An argument can be that the agnostic religion is the most honest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    I wasn't implying that you were Christian. As a Christian I also ally myself with what is known today as "libertarian". Both of these things require that I keep all of my religion under my control and demand that the government stay out of it.

    BTW - An argument can be that the agnostic religion is the most honest.
    +1 I have great conversations with people of all faiths. To me it's fun being an outsider, I learn a lot.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Libertarians don't decry the public influence of religion. Believe it or not there are christian libertarians. We decry the state sanctioning or granting any priviledges or letting it be used by a religion to further it's purposes.
    Unfortunately, various people claim that preventing the government from meddling in religion is a violation of individual religious liberty.

    I am all for individuals worshiping as they choose, so long as such worship does not infringe on the rights of others. I staunchly oppose the government mandating religion.

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    I don't consider honoring others people's right to choose for themselves as meddling. On this site we have no rights covered under the constitution, it is a private entity, not the same as government. The site owners can give privileges to the members, the government attempts to turn rights into privileges so they can control the people, instead of the people controlling the government. Many people are for government controlling people especially control freaks. It is a way of imposing their thought and will on others without getting their grubby little hands dirty.

    If people and government would let people control their own lives more IMO there would be less violence in this country. People should be responsible for their own destiny and choices, and the ability to take control for one's self, and let others live and control their self is liberating.

    Personally I am not a religious person, I really don't concern myself with it, and certainly do not waste my valuable time here worrying about others. But then I am not a control freak.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    I don't consider honoring others people's right to choose for themselves as meddling. On this site we have no rights covered under the constitution, it is a private entity, not the same as government. The site owners can give privileges to the members, the government attempts to turn rights into privileges so they can control the people, instead of the people controlling the government. Many people are for government controlling people especially control freaks. It is a way of imposing their thought and will on others without getting their grubby little hands dirty.

    If people and government would let people control their own lives more IMO there would be less violence in this country. People should be responsible for their own destiny and choices, and the ability to take control for one's self, and let others live and control their self is liberating.

    Personally I am not a religious person, I really don't concern myself with it, and certainly do not waste my valuable time here worrying about others. But then I am not a control freak.
    So you would have no problem with the federal government making a Muslim holiday a legal holiday?

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    Quote Originally Posted by minarchist View Post
    So you would have no problem with the federal government making a Muslim holiday a legal holiday?
    No problem at all, unless they are going to actually force people to do things against their will. OTH I have a problem with control freaks who bomb cities, kill classrooms full of children, beat their wives, rape and other crimes because they lack self control, YET they wish to control others to the point they are willing to rape, maim, and kill.

    The question is how to control the control freaks without becoming a control freak. So what we are left with is tolerating them until they step over the line. And then we use our right to self defense to exterminate them, until them mocking them for their lack of control over others is fun.

    PS; Merry Christmas!
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 05-11-2013 at 01:46 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    No problem at all,
    Well fairness is good, except that if the federal government catered to every last religion in the country, no matter how small, it could become messy. The calendar on the OPM website would likely be full of holidays.

    unless they are going to actually force people to do things against their will. OTH I have a problem with control freaks who bomb cities, kill classrooms full of children, beat their wives, rape and other crimes because they lack self control, YET they wish to control others to the point they are willing to rape, maim, and kill.
    I have a problem with them too.

    The question is how to control the control freaks without becoming a control freak.
    I have an idea. Other people can exercise their liberty to try to persuade these people to not act as they do (perhaps by correcting some of their erroneous preconceptions). If a man stopped being a Muslim, he would most likely never bomb a city.

    So what we are left with is tolerating them until they step over the line. And then we use our right to self defense to exterminate them, until them mocking them for their lack of control over others is fun.
    We are left with that, along with exercising our liberty to say that they believe is incorrect (especially if they start the conversation by preaching to us, which happened to me a couple times with exchange students back in college).

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    Quote Originally Posted by minarchist View Post
    Well fairness is good, except that if the federal government catered to every last religion in the country, no matter how small, it could become messy. The calendar on the OPM website would likely be full of holidays.



    I have a problem with them too.



    I have an idea. Other people can exercise their liberty to try to persuade these people to not act as they do (perhaps by correcting some of their erroneous preconceptions). If a man stopped being a Muslim, he would most likely never bomb a city.



    We are left with that, along with exercising our liberty to say that they believe is incorrect (especially if they start the conversation by preaching to us, which happened to me a couple times with exchange students back in college).
    So you would prefer them to cater to you? Bhwahahahahahahaha!

    AND another genius that thinks Muslims are evil, why am I not surprised. The bombers were control freaks, the same as all violent lunatics who want to control the thoughts of others. Just like someone who attempts to convince others of their thoughts. If we could find all these control freaks and eliminate them, THAT would eliminate any future bombings. But then that would be another form of control.

    Kinda reminds me of my father when I was a child. One of those holy rollers came to the door and walked in on my mother and started his routine. Attempting to control us with religion, my fathers answer was poking him in the face with a twelve gauge shotgun. Certainly his own type of control, but it got the message across. It wasn't about religion or lack of religion, the message was leave us the #@*% alone. Mind your own business. I hope you never encounter a person like my father, bless his soul, because you would learn a thing or two about control.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 05-11-2013 at 02:03 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
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    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
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    Regular Member minarchist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    So you would prefer them to cater to you? Bhwahahahahahahaha!
    Does "them" refer to Muslims or the federal government?

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    Quote Originally Posted by minarchist View Post
    Does "them" refer to Muslims or the federal government?
    Why does it matter who it is you have wishes to control? It is not a healthy behavior.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Why does it matter who it is you have wishes to control? It is not a healthy behavior.
    I don't want to control anyone, so you're right, it doesn't matter, since regardless of whom you meant by "them", I don't want to control them.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by minarchist View Post
    I don't want to control anyone, so you're right, it doesn't matter, since regardless of whom you meant by "them", I don't want to control them.
    The you should stop whining about the worship of others. Otherwise it goes back to that not telling the truth thang.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The you should stop whining about the worship of others. Otherwise it goes back to that not telling the truth thang.
    So I have no right to decline conversion (and, when they don't take no for an answer, and give me a list of things from some apologetics book that they read, I refute those things) when I am approached by others and they demand that I convert?

    I really would like to know how they're not whining about my atheism when they approach me and demand that I convert, yet when I politely refuse to convert, and when they refuse to accept my refusal, and give me reasons why I should think as they do, and I refute those reasons, I am whining about their worship. Please explain this.

    P.S. Atheists are not known for going door-to-door, but religious people are.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by minarchist View Post
    So I have no right to decline conversion (and, when they don't take no for an answer, and give me a list of things from some apologetics book that they read, I refute those things) when I am approached by others and they demand that I convert?

    I really would like to know how they're not whining about my atheism when they approach me and demand that I convert, yet when I politely refuse to convert, and when they refuse to accept my refusal, and give me reasons why I should think as they do, and I refute those reasons, I am whining about their worship. Please explain this.

    P.S. Atheists are not known for going door-to-door, but religious people are.
    Yet you cannot control your insistence of pushing your dogma down others throat when they decline. You do not have to take part in any religious prayer or conversation. Harassing others for your undocumented claims is making your existence a joke. Again nobody here has demanded you convert, stop LYING!
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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