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Thread: Not confronted once in civilian attire since 1972 - until recently, Now it's on...

  1. #1
    Regular Member Aarius's Avatar
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    Not confronted once in civilian attire since 1972 - until recently, Now it's on...

    There are many things about Open Carry - Open Visibility - visually communicated intent to all but the uninformed few that I grew very comfortable with many years ago. Not the least of which is the tremendous responsibility that choosing to OC "OPENLY" demands of the person so carrying. Constantly looking for ways to "raise the bar" that I would make part of my very way of thinking has been a standard I have required of myself for forty-one years.

    Perhaps one of those "realities of life" is the fact that anyone under any circumstance especially one who has come to rely upon a lifetime of experience whatever that might be is that a "wake up call" has never been more than the right moment in the wrong place, or vice versa, away.

    Not too long ago I had occasion to go with my son, his wife and my grandson to Valley Fair Mall in West Valley City, Utah. The occasion was something my son had planned otherwise I never have a reason to go there.

    I have been aware that business owners have a right to post their place of business prohibiting firearms from being carried inside. I know of a couple businesses near where I live who have posted such prohibition signs and of whom I am quite pleased to never go there and encourage my friends and acquaintances to boycott the business for such narrow minded thinking. All the while respecting the business owner for expressing concerns by acting upon them and exercising their rights.

    I have every reason to believe there are some, hopefully just a very small handful, of current permit holders who for a whole bunch of reasons shouldn't have a permit. I'm thinking, for example, of someone who obtains a permit with a very narrow attitude of self protection alone and has never considered that some unforeseen and indeed unwanted circumstance might call upon them to act to defend innocent fellow citizens. Even worse, they have the permit, that attitude of what I will call selfishness, and likely because of that attitude (my opinion only) has not pursued one minutes professional training that would include all the whens, wheres, whys, what ifs, when nevers, how tos, how not to (poor grammar is intentional hopefully to paint a picture at the expense of freaking out my spell-checker). I regret to include in this business owners not unreasonable concern about the extremely small percentage of LEO's who somehow skate the requisite and recurring psych evaluations and who should not have a gun and a badge.

    It was night time as we entered the mall and mostly because I don't frequent the place slowing down to scan the perhaps twenty-five foot wide entrance for that maybe 8 inch diameter circular white sign with a red outside circle, a straight red line across the center that super imposes a black image of a rather generic looking handgun. The International visual sign recognized in all the free world as "the item represented hereon is not allowed herein" was nowhere to be seen. There was no wording spelled out and "prominently displayed" so as to catch the attention of one reasonably expected to observe the message intended something like; "NO FIREARMS, GUNS NOT ALLOWED, CONCEALED FIREARMS PROHIBITED" displayed anywhere. With complete confidence I joined my family and proceeded to the planned event.

    Valley Fair Mall has some 120 businesses inside and presents a long walk if your son had no idea where to park. Well into the procession I noticed two young men dressed in uniforms so as to communicate they were some type of security personnel but lacking the absolute essentials one would see on a law enforcement officer. I noticed that they had zeroed in on me even from 50 or so feet away. Being "hyper vigilant" is part of the every minute lifestyle of someone who accepts and understands the awesome responsibility of having prominently displayed upon their right hip, in my case, a 9 mm GLOCK semi-automatic pistol well secured in a tactical level II holster and a twin pouch snap locked magazine utility all on a tactical TDU CQC belt. Not many will understand any of the weapon description, what it was in, what was with it, or how it was worn. No one with clear vision could mistake the fact that this guy is very likely not a convicted felon intent upon wreaking havoc with a deadly weapon in a public place. Hold that - I failed to include the "none so blind as those who WILL NOT SEE" very small minority or just plain stupid people.

    Not deterred one bit by the approaching "security professionals", who my son also had pegged and he is an active LEO visiting here from Northern Nevada and he was carrying concealed, we just continued our hiking trip. The two young men, I honestly thought to be maybe 15 or so, spoke politely to me and informed me that the mall has a no firearms policy and invited me, in so many words, to turn around and leave. My son, an LEO now of about 7 years experience, was about to go off on them. I suggested we walk back to the entrance and asked them to point out their signage they had just stated was posted.

    On the right wall at 90 degrees to the entrance and well away from the regular flow of pedestrian traffic was a white sign maybe 1 foot and 3/4 in total size with black block letters maybe 3/4 inch that extended to about a hundred words or more. All the mall's policies about no skateboarding, no smoking, no spitting, no running, and somewhere in the middle a mention about no weapons. An entire court room prepared argument against such exculpatory material, that was in no way "prominently displayed", and that I wouldn't like it anyway was all choked back as I was busy trying to corral an out of state/jurisdiction but quite capable LEO from taking a couple of maybe LEO wannabe's to the wood shed and the result was that the planned event was that quickly moved to an open carry friendly business.

    I have stewed over that but decided not to return and visit the property manager to provide them with a set of free International red and white signs with printouts of applicable Utah Criminal Code because retirement can mean not having to cure all the ills of society and just forget about it. MAYBE - until last Saturday I decided to go to the Jordan Commons Megaplex theater to see a movie as I have done several times in the past 5 years, always well armed and open carry and I was stopped in my tracks at the entrance by a large and from one side of the entrance to the other at least a 1 foot brown painted stripe with large black inset letters clearly stating "NO FIREARMS ALLOWED". I did not see the movie I went there for and will not see any other movie at THE JORDAN COMMONS LARRY H. MILLER MEGAPLEX - ever and this is but an opening salvo determined to be seen and heard of by theater management and for that matter now all businesses that I might or probably would never otherwise patronize.

    Does there exist a listing of businesses in Utah that have exercised their right to "refuse service to anyone" as I will now describe it, except some criminal element who could now feel much more at ease about hitting the business and shooting anyone in their way because no cops are in sight and they know there will be no legally armed citizens inside the business?

    If no such list is available for whatever reason I'm here to announce that they didn't see me coming when I'm petitioning in person whatever agency is responsible to provide one and with no small voice either.

    To reduce my ever increasing agitation to maybe 10,000 words or less here may I invite you to view what I believe is the best explanation ever heard for those who legally open carry - especially from a non LEO not to mention baby carrying Mom from Alabama.



    Well displayed on the wall near my front door

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	06 May 2013 Firearm Safety Wall Plaque.jpg 
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Name:	08 May 2013 This is my GLOCK in it's 5 copy.jpg 
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    Last edited by Aarius; 05-08-2013 at 08:24 PM. Reason: spelling correction

  2. #2
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    It is disheartening to learn you and yours were turned away from your original plans and had to go to a "Plan B", as it were. I do hope your event was still enjoyable, though.

    As to your query of a database of Pro vs. Anti establishments, I have found www.friendorfoe.us to be a boon. If the locations you went to are not there yet, please add them in.

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    Regular Member Aarius's Avatar
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    How kind of you

    Thank you for the link to friendorfoe. I will be all over that.

    As an aside; Something I fear with all my writings now is that someone will take the position as "Oh he got his feel goods hurt" because for so many years no one questioned me and now in a relatively short while I have had two experiences. Not so. I am lamenting the thought that a coming news story will be about innocent people shot in a business that forbade firearms and the owner will be seen and heard regretting his/her decision and I had once been a regular patron there.

    Thomas Jefferson said: “Do you want to know who you are? Don't ask. Act! Action will delineate and define you.”

    And I say: "Character is who and what I am, a reputation is merely what other people think I am."

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    I have every reason to believe there are some, hopefully just a very small handful, of current permit holders who for a whole bunch of reasons shouldn't have a permit.


    ????? whaaat?

    We don't even need a piece of paper IMO to carry ... there is a big piece of paper in DC that's got it covered


    And felons....why cannot they carry? They served their time, right? The only argument is that they are to dangerous to own. Really? If so, why are they out in public at all then?

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    I wouldn't pay much, if any, attention to those who would condescend to purported hurt feelings. You were there, they were not.

    Aside from that, thank you for your service to our country.

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    Regular Member tomrkba's Avatar
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    Does there exist a listing of businesses in Utah that have exercised their right to "refuse service to anyone" as I will now describe it, except some criminal element who could now feel much more at ease about hitting the business and shooting anyone in their way because no cops are in sight and they know there will be no legally armed citizens inside the business?
    friendorfoe.us...if it has anything for your state. I noticed that Utah is quite sparse. Please start adding pro/anti locations.
    Last edited by tomrkba; 05-08-2013 at 02:02 PM.

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    Regular Member Aarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I have every reason to believe there are some, hopefully just a very small handful, of current permit holders who for a whole bunch of reasons shouldn't have a permit.


    ????? whaaat?

    We don't even need a piece of paper IMO to carry ... there is a big piece of paper in DC that's got it covered


    And felons....why cannot they carry? They served their time, right? The only argument is that they are to dangerous to own. Really? If so, why are they out in public at all then?
    Davidmcbeth - I must reply directly to this and hopefully communicate a little better. You read that I have every reason to believe there are some... who shouldn't have a permit. You replied ????? whaaat? I will rephrase that for you with more explanation of what I wrote and what you read. There are any number of ways to say the same thing using different words. Nothing I wrote has the least degree of intent to suggest anyone needs "a piece of paper" and equally not a hint that the "big piece of paper in DC" should get fingerprints on it from anyone for any reason. Everything I write, everything I say, every action I take has the intent of communicating clearly to all who observe that there exists within me no questions about what that "big piece of paper" has always meant to me.

    What the statement says is that the constitution is nothing less than a divinely inspired document penned by our forefathers and intended to compliment the manner in which a free society learns correct principles and with that learning governs themselves. It is a necessary fact that some in our society will not have or care for the best interests of all concerned and cannot be trusted to employ the intent of the constitution and must be given from time to time some tough love. I could break every few words just written down to their lowest common denominator and it would all be for naught to those, for example, who could and would obtain a permit and then use it to set up confrontational scenarios where they make sure their weapon is seen in a public place to "entrap" the LEO's who respond to a MWG call in order to prove a point or improve upon the true definition of what the rights of law abiding citizens actually extend to.

    I feel sorry for such people who act in a way so as to meet and coral the letter of the law by perhaps defying the law itself as not applicable to them and all the while never realize that those great men who penned the constitution did so with much more emphasis on the spirit of the law than the letter of the law.

    Some are so preoccupied with making sure every jot and tittle of the law is brought to bear to suit their narrow interpretation of such laws. It always seems to be the pinnacle of their efforts to make sure others know all they do not have to do and completely dismiss what everyone ought to do .

    I think you read what I wrote and just could not see the forest for the trees. I know exactly why I walk into any public place well enough armed and capable of facing whatever sad scenario might happen. If bad things did happen and I knew there were other well armed citizens in the same public place even as it pierces me to consider this fact, those few of whom I wrote I would in no way want them backing me up when the feces hit the ventilation system.

    Sorry, I won't even consider the convicted felons thing. I mean really!
    Last edited by Aarius; 05-08-2013 at 08:22 PM. Reason: Minor corrections

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomrkba View Post
    friendorfoe.us...if it has anything for your state. I noticed that Utah is quite sparse. Please start adding pro/anti locations.
    Utah businesses restricting firearm carry are quite rare. The only ones you can identify are those businesses which post signs prohibiting firearms (I have never seen a "Firearms Welcome" sign). Most of the banks here in Utah aren't even posted. Pax...
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    Glad to know Valley Fair doesn't allow firearms, I haven't been there in years anyway but now I know not to go. If you are ever looking for a nice shopping center to walk through and open carry you are always welcome to come up to Salt Lake and go to City Creek Center. I work security there and we fully allow open carry and I for one am always pleased when I see people doing so (also it's a much, much nicer mall than Valley Fair).

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    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by USMC0351 View Post
    Glad to know Valley Fair doesn't allow firearms, I haven't been there in years anyway but now I know not to go. If you are ever looking for a nice shopping center to walk through and open carry you are always welcome to come up to Salt Lake and go to City Creek Center. I work security there and we fully allow open carry and I for one am always pleased when I see people doing so (also it's a much, much nicer mall than Valley Fair).
    +1 - and I agree that City Creek is a First Class place to shop.

    Unfortunately, there are carriers among us who do not possess the proper attitude to carry a firearm. It is not just those who wish to trap the local LEOs or hope they encounter a reason to draw their handgun. Back in my day as a LEO, we called this "Wyatt Earp Syndrome".

    There are many, many, BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructors in Utah. But, for my part, in addition to refusing to sign off a student for multiple safety violations, I do not hesitate to refuse to sign off a student if I detect an improper attitude or a lack of understanding of the terrible burden one accepts when one decides to carry a firearm.
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    I was stopped in my tracks at the entrance by a large and from one side of the entrance to the other at least a 1 foot brown painted stripe with large black inset letters clearly stating "NO FIREARMS ALLOWED".
    At least it's plainly visible.
    I would find that greatly preferable to the few words hidden in the mass of other "we don't want your kind here" things listed at the mall.
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    Regular Member Aarius's Avatar
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    Thank you for all the replies, that said, I'm getting my soapbox out.

    I have read all the replies to date and gotta tell ya I don't feel so alone out there now. Actually I don't remember feeling anything regarding any form of trespass or who does or does not notice the very conspicuous firearm, 2 extra magazines, and other stuff that is simply part of who and what I am.

    Being part of a law enforcement family all my adult life has obviously had an affect on how I see life in general and no doubt how others have seen me - both from knowing me to the general passers by I see out and about every day. Those of you who are currently active LEO's as well as former and retired know exactly what I mean when I say the overall perception is just different. When my currently active son and I are together it's a lot like working together. For those not in law enforcement and otherwise have no history from that perspective it is easy for me to see how viewpoints can vary.

    A few months ago I was pushing a shopping cart around in a Walmart as I've done many times before. Living alone means if I don't make it to the store the fridge will not just magically refill itself. I turned a corner and met a uniformed supervisor doing the same thing I was. In an instant It was obvious to me that he was an active LEO with sergeants stripes. Guys don't normally make comments about how other guys make that first impression - this is an exception. He absolutely looked the part and I could see his name badge clearly. "Sergeant ".........", how are you today?" I'm not in uniform but my interpretation of what another person, specifically here a supervisor in uniform, would think of me at first impression is about as casual and normal as it can be. Cops have added senses especially the sense of perception and at close range when any situation presents itself that can be easily explained but I don't think so easily understood. Before the verbal greeting an entire process of "threat assessment" has taken place in the blink of an eye and as if instantaneously the atmosphere is relaxed and a polite reply was given. In that instant he already knew I was strapped and that my intentions were certain. I would be so bold as to say that in my civilian attire, a 9 mm GLOCK securely affixed to my hip on a black CQB tactical belt and the fact that he was wearing a 5.11 Thumb-Drive level II holster with a GLOCK well secured to a duty belt with gold keepers did not go unnoticed in either direction. There was not so much as a hint of questioning upon his face - just the "poker face" most supervisors I've known over many years seem to develop. We passed again a couple more times but stopping to commiserate just wasn't in the atmosphere. Respect, however, was in good supply and it was mutual. That pretty well spells out any time I have ever "turned a corner" and the same scenario explained above plays out.

    Remember the video I re-posted that was a TV interview with a Mom from Alabama who explained in no uncertain terms why OPEN CARRY is what it is and what it should be? Some of the posts and replies I've seen on sites similar to this one at once amuse me and give me cause for concern. Some paraphrased examples; "If a wannabe crook sees my gun I could be shot first"; "Some people are frightened when they see a gun on another who is not a uniformed cop"; "Open carrying eliminates the element of surprise I would want if accosted by a criminal"; "If two people carrying guns sees each other how will they know neither is a crook and a shootout could happen" That's enough, that last one I'm sure was a scene from a Keystone Cops silent film, I mean really!!

    It is a medically proven fact that in our daily lives we all communicate visually and that communication is not a one-way thing. We both communicate visually "with" others and we communicate visually "to" others. There are people with naturally dominant personalities. They are the ones we see in the movies who just "take command" when a calamity occurs. The naturally know what to do, when to do, how to motivate others out of harms way, and if necessary cold cock a drowning person they are trying to save who is about a hundred jumps past panic and flailing about trying to climb up on the rescuer they are in fact trying to drown both. So if necessary the level-headed rescuer convinces the panicked victim that going totally limp is the best possible thing they can do. If the victim doesn't suffer a broken neck from the blow then he/she is gently floated to safety.

    It is incorrect to refer to a cop as being hyper vigilant. Hyper vigilance is a condition that will contain many of the characteristics a cop will display while on duty, or off duty, it's all the same with a seasoned cop. From Wikipedia we learn that hyper vigilance is a mental disorder. "Hyper vigilance is an enhanced state of sensory sensitivity accompanied by an exaggerated intensity of behaviors whose purpose is to detect threats. Hyper vigilance is also accompanied by a state of increased anxiety which can cause exhaustion. Other symptoms include: abnormally increased arousal, a high responsiveness to stimuli, and a constant scanning of the environment for threats. In hyper vigilance, there is a perpetual scanning of the environment to search for sights, sounds, people, behaviors, smells, or anything else that is reminiscent of threat or trauma. The individual is placed on high alert in order to be certain danger is not near. Hyper vigilance can lead to a variety of obsessive behavior patterns, as well as producing difficulties with social interaction and relationships."

    This reality my friends is not rocket surgery. A COP by the very fact that he/she is a COP, usually in uniform for the express purpose of clearly communicating at first visually followed usually by verbal, and often commanding voice patterns that they are there for the express purpose of placing themselves between the bad guy and the innocent civilian. (Please, I have no interest in discussing and or dissecting the very real small element who wear the badge who shouldn't be out of a straight jacket). To become a cop the at first applicant is subjected to any number of psychological tests to try to determine the applicants general state of mind and how the applicant might react to any given stimuli.

    May I wax just a little personal here, thank you. I remember well my first full board oral review. The board was made up of one or two from "personnel",didn't have HR back before dirt, a clinical psychologist, a couple of regular cops who either volunteered or got volunteered, a supervisor usually a sergeant and some brass, Lieutenant or higher and always one or more FTO's (Field Training Officers). The questioning was brutal and very harsh. I have always been very religious and how well I remember trying desperately to not show my beet red face when one of the FTO's let fly with a volley of four letter words that would have embarrassed a bunch of drunks in a bar. He did so because I tried very hard to grab every ounce of education I could get on Police Recruit Board Review tactics. I expected to be set up and I was not disappointed. The scenario this FTO presented was horrific and worse torn from the police reports of an actual crime some years before. Two cops in uniform, one a lieutenant, had responded to a "next door" domestic call when they heard a young girl screaming bloody murder from a house very near. They rushed in to find a degenerate pervert molesting and maiming a 12 year old girl. She was near death and it would be learned that he had been committing this heinous crime for a couple hours. To say they intervened is like saying a squad of Marine Force Recon troops happened upon a few Taliban insurgents in the act of beating to death a whole family who were suspected of aided US forces and smiled and asked them to stop and go play somewhere else.

    I was to be on station duty working the booking desk when these two cops brought in this less than law abiding citizen - who had violently resisted arrest and was bloodied from head to naked feet for doing so. Procedure is intake, medical attention when necessary, complete photos including all tattoos, issue jail-jumpsuits, take the police report(s) and begin that process of building an iron clad case then dumping, excuse me, placing the arrestee in a holding cell. While in the "drunk tank" the arrestee is in my "custody" and my job is not just to make sure he stays there but comes to no harm.

    These two officers had not just arrested a violent and very sick individual they barely saved the girls life. The anger and frustration exhibited by these cops could fall within the realm of understandably wanting to inflict some jailhouse justice because the guy would be out on bail in 24 to 36 hours and likely not spend a day in prison. Now the catch 22.

    I would be told by the lieutenant to go all the way to the other side of the complex where the kitchen is, make a fresh pot of coffee and take my time doing so. I was in fact being excused so that I would not, could not witness the rather intense interrogation about to ensue and this would be the type of interrogation where the one now officially in my custody may very likely suffer lethal heart failure from it all. He was not just caught in the act, he made a concerted effort to kill the girl the instant he realized the cops were on him. So badly injured was she that she would never be able to bear children and the facial lacerations could not be surgically repaired so as to allow her the slightest degree of an otherwise normal life. The graphic picture painted for me made the female psychologist gulp as if she was going to hurl right there. So graphic was the description that it would have been very easy to go make the best pot of coffee ever brewed for one thing it would have taken me maybe an hour to do it.

    So, Deputy J.,you're going to go make that coffee just as the lieutenant ordered, right?

    With respect - no sir!

    The man literally crawled up on the table and over to me to scream and cuss at me and you have to use your imagination as to the words he screamed and called me. I no longer had a red face, now it was course as cement and I never batted an eye. I got the job.

    What's the point? There is the letter of the law and there is the spirit of the law and sometimes they cannot be told apart. From that type of determination to uphold the law ~ in front of a review board where only one answer is possible, one learns that being a cop is a multifaceted job description. You either play ball or pick up your toys and go home. How does that translate to being almost hyper vigilant because death is a heartbeat away for the cop who is not in it 100%. He/she makes a routine traffic stop, approaches the driver's side window and is shot point blank. You Tube is full of such stuff.

    Now in America we have the 2nd Amendment that I support with all I am or hope to be. In Utah a person who has lived a law abiding life, was not dishonorably discharged from the US Armed Forces, may pay a small fee and apply for a permit to carry a weapon upon his person in public with some restrictions. He may choose to conceal carry a pistol or open carry the pistol which is a matter of choice. Either way a person or persons so disposed will be able to ascertain with a good degree of probability that the licensed individual is armed. This may shock you. There are people right here within a short distance of where you are right now who may have a criminal background but mostly petty stuff yet in the blink of an eye had just as soon shoot you to death as not and laugh while doing it. Would you be as ready as you could be to counter such a threat, to recognize it before it sees you, to actually pull a firearm and discharge it into the body of that person with extreme prejudice AFTER every thing that could be done has been done to avoid taking a life.

    Are you aware that there is a distinct difference between young children curious about that big gun you have and feeling brazen enough to approach you and ask about it, people passing and commenting about what a nice gun it is, etc. and so on, and walking about in public boldly open carrying, walking and talking in such a manner that you clearly convey to anyone that you are an honest law abiding citizen but as to personal AND PUBLIC protection you are as serious as a heart attack. That you have a current copy of Utah Criminal and Traffic Code and that you know the law as regards the lethal weapon on your person? That you may never have sat in one police academy class but when it comes to the use of deadly force to protect life and property the law does not discriminate between you and a cop? Do you understand the meaning, the intent, the defense for PROBABLE CAUSE?

    I think I've preached enough for today especially since this started out as just a sincere thank you for the replies and to all who read my extremely weighted opinions even if they are dead on.... OR, I could be wrong here and there, just a little.

    My signature in all these issues:

    "There is no such thing as an unloaded gun"

    My quote for today seems a bit more apropos than I'm totally comfortable with ~ but it is true nevertheless:

    “The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.”
    ― Terry Pratchett, Diggers

  13. #13
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aarius
    I have every reason to believe there are some, hopefully just a very small handful, of current permit holders who for a whole bunch of reasons shouldn't have a permit. I'm thinking, for example, of someone who obtains a permit with a very narrow attitude of self protection alone and has never considered that some unforeseen and indeed unwanted circumstance might call upon them to act to defend innocent fellow citizens.
    You are saying this person should not have a permit?
    Last edited by MAC702; 05-28-2013 at 02:42 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aarius View Post
    ...I have been aware that business owners have a right to post their place of business prohibiting firearms from being carried inside.
    ...
    The two young men ... spoke politely to me and informed me that the mall has a no firearms policy and invited me, in so many words, to turn around and leave. My son, an LEO now of about 7 years experience, was about to go off on them. I suggested we walk back to the entrance and asked them to point out their signage they had just stated was posted. ...
    Be aware that the sign is not required for them to ask you to leave for having a firearm (or for any reason that does not violate a civil right). From the moment you did not immediately leave when asked, you could be guilty of trespassing.

    That said, a sign is also not a legal notice on a private business. You are not required to look for one, nor even obey it if you happen to see it. But you are required to leave when told to do so.

    And good for you for not patronizing businesses that feel this way.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member LovesHisXD45's Avatar
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    Holy crack smoker Batman! I think the joker has escaped!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aarius View Post
    I have every reason to believe there are some, hopefully just a very small handful, of current permit holders who for a whole bunch of reasons shouldn't have a permit. I'm thinking, for example, of someone who obtains a permit with a very narrow attitude of self protection alone and has never considered that some unforeseen and indeed unwanted circumstance might call upon them to act to defend innocent fellow citizens
    You seem like a very kind and articulate fellow, so I hate to disagree with you, but I must. I am assuming you hold this opinion due to a background in law enforcement. I can understand that you have been used to, ("conditioned" for lack of a better term) carrying a firearm for not only your own safety, but for that of others you were tasked with assisting as part of your occupation.

    However, while you have become accustomed to the idea of using your firearm for others, as well as yourself, others have not. They aren't required to.

    I am not a police officer.

    I did not obtain a permit to be like a police officer.

    I do not carry to fulfill the role of a police officer.

    Selfish? Callous? Uncaring?

    No.

    I carry a gun for one main reason and numerous others of lesser import: Self-Defense. Not "everyone else in Denny's defense", not "folks who lacked the forethought to arm themselves defense"......Self-defense.

    You may believe that I shouldn't have a permit simply for lack of qualification for the "Good Samaritan Club", but I believe this is a viewpoint arrived at through "conditioning" recieved from the perspective of law enforcement where a person probably becomes innured to using their firearm for the benefit of others. It is part of the job.

    A job I never had.

    I partially agree with you on the topic of training. If a person is going to undertake the responsibility of carrying a firearm, they should take the additional responsibility of doing it right, for their own safety and others. While I am not a fan of a person being required to be a paragon of virtue for the good of all mankind, I agree that, should one decide to carry a firearm for whatever reason, they should do so in a manner that isn't a danger to others. However, this should be at their own choosing, and not under anyone else's insistence.

    I've personally bettered myself through myriads of training courses. If I'm going to carry a firearm for self-defense, by gosh, I'm going to be good at it.

    However, if the pedestrians I encounter in my daily life need protection from evildoers.........

    .....I see nothing that has prevented them from taking the same measures I have.

    If Joe Schmo at the Quicky Mart needs a firearm to save him from Joe Bad-Guy........maybe he should try carrying one. Unless he's a convicted felon, there isn't really a valid reason he can't take the required steps to do so. Why should this idea of yours that "carriers should protect others" punish me? Why should I not be allowed to carry simply because someone else hasn't taken the same precautions as I have: Self protection, alone?
    Last edited by Superlite27; 06-14-2013 at 05:08 PM.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Elm Creek Smith's Avatar
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    At work, I am responsible for the safety of those around me. Off duty, I am responsible for my safety and the safety of my family. If I step up to protect someone else, the circumstances must be crystal clear.

    I had one woman see my open carried revolver and demand, "Why are you carrying a gun?"

    I answered, "I'm not. I'm carrying two."

    She wasn't nearly as amused as I.

    ECS

    Sent from my little slice of Heaven.
    "If the truth hurts, it should." - Dad

    " A year from now, ten, they'll swing back to the belief that they can make people... better. And I do not hold to that. So no more running. I aim to misbehave." - Malcolm Reynolds, Serenity

    "The cheaper the crook, the gaudier the patter." - Sam Spade, The Maltese Falcon

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aarius View Post


    Sorry, I won't even consider the convicted felons thing. I mean really!
    Why not? under federal law, felons can be police officers and possess and carry firearms on behalf of a government agency as they are exempt from ALL federal disqualifiers (except Lautenberg).

    Keep in mind, there are so many felonies. If you take prescription medication out of its original container and put it in a pill day planner.... Felony.

    If your off-duty LEO son carries in Utah without a Utah CFP and is within 1000 feet of a K-12 school.... Felony.

    Catch my drift? I Recommend you check out the book Three Felonies A Day because most people commit felonies everyday.

    If felons are so dangerous, them they should never be let out of prison. Besides if a felon can carry a gun on an airplane on behalf of the federal government, then felons should have a reasonably accessible way to restore their rights, if not, then they should be in jail for life.

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