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Thread: Creation, true, false, or unsure?

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Creation, true, false, or unsure?

    I've seen a few threads derailing over creationism.

    Here is a thread to discuss it on.

    Please use evidence to back up your opinion if you believe one way or the other.
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    Creation, true, false, or unsure?

    Well, the OP is definitely giving the non-creationists what he surely thinks is a leg up by demanding evidence, which only the non-creationists think they can provide.

    However, none of us was there. No one can present one scrap of conclusive evidence one way or the other. Some folks will point to scientific "evidence" that says that the Earth is older than the biblical Creation story would seem to set it. However, they ignore one thing: Couldn't a God who brings an entire universe into existence create it with all that evidence of age already present?

    Science, when used to look backward, is interesting, but, by nature, flawed. Science makes guesses about how things work, uses those guesses to predict future outcomes, and constantly refines those guesses into theories and laws as they prove to be better and better predictors. Science is forward-looking. It is not apt for looking backward.

    The net result: Whether you believe in a creation event or not, whether you will admit it or not, you are relying on faith. You are building a complete system of belief based upon axioms you cannot prove. But, hey, Euclidean Geometry works. And it is based on axioms accepted on faith. Even a few we now know to be false!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Please use evidence to back up your opinion if you believe one way or the other.
    Evidence is a dot on an epistemological map of reality. Connecting the dots to inductively infer an hypothesis adds no new information and likely misses significant data in unmapped dimensions or scales.

    Contrarywise, creation/evolution are deductive inference.

    I am sure of creation and the uncaused Cause. That it has an ego allowing teleological arguments I am less sure.

    I base my faith on my expected utility, the rewards returned for little cost, the expected utility of Pascal's Wager, against the infinite cost of being wrong supposing a jealous and vengeful God. Besides, I like my faith community and its morals better than the amoral and faithless.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 05-09-2013 at 09:23 AM.
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    However, none of us was there. No one can present one scrap of conclusive evidence one way or the other.
    <o>
    And why I am agnostic in the strictest sense, I simply don't know....
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    Creation, true, false, or unsure?

    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    And why I am agnostic in the strictest sense, I simply don't know....
    Which would be a valid position were one to rely solely on traditional proof. Being that none exists, if a conclusion were to be achieved, some other means is necessary. It is not required that that means not be logical.


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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Which would be a valid position were one to rely solely on traditional proof. Being that none exists, if a conclusion were to be achieved, some other means is necessary. It is not required that that means not be logical.


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    I understand those who have faith in their conclusions, be it atheism or creationism.....to me I don't have the further means to draw a conclusion , when presented I am willing to change my position.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    I've seen a few threads derailing over creationism.

    Here is a thread to discuss it on.

    Please use evidence to back up your opinion if you believe one way or the other.
    One way or the other? Do you mean creationism vs not creationism?

    Well, what will you accept as evidence? Circumstantial or eye witness?

    When pondering creationism, you're supposing that there is a creator. Also, typically the term "creationism" is associated with the Bible's description of how things came to be. This story is relayed to man by the Creator. The Bible claims to be the official account by the eye witness and perpetrator of creation. Will you accept his testimony?

    If you will only accept circumstantial evidence, evidence pieced together through observation of the state of the universe today and then try to extrapolate backwards, then you may find evidence to support either supposition. However, if there is a creator, then there is a strong possibility that not all things are knowable to man. Therefore, any attempt at using circumstantial evidence to discover the origin of everything may do nothing more than occupy his time, with little chance of the truth ever making itself known.

    Weighing the possibility of creationism really must begin with the same basic assumption of any other belief. Do you assume that there is a creator?

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    God created himself so he could pull the trigger that initiated the Big Bang. All anyone has to do is find evidence that suggests that my theory is not supported by fact.
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    Creation, true, false, or unsure?

    Your theory is not supported by fact. None of them are.


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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Where did God come from- "He was always there"

    Where did this singularity come from- "It was always there"


    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Well, the OP is definitely giving the non-creationists what he surely thinks is a leg up by demanding evidence, which only the non-creationists think they can provide.

    However, none of us was there. No one can present one scrap of conclusive evidence one way or the other. Some folks will point to scientific "evidence" that says that the Earth is older than the biblical Creation story would seem to set it. However, they ignore one thing: Couldn't a God who brings an entire universe into existence create it with all that evidence of age already present?



    <o>
    If you believe the biblical account, which I do, you would understand, in the original creation, things were created fully mature. The plants were fully mature, producing fruit. The animals were able to reproduce. Adam, although only one day old, was a mature man.

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    Creation, true, false, or unsure?

    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Where did God come from- "He was always there"

    Where did this singularity come from- "It was always there"


    "Always" implies time. Time is a construct of the universe. It does not exist outside of the universe.

    It is hard to cogitate on timelessness, but God tried to explain it in the Bible when Jesus said that He was the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. If God created everything (and I believe that He did), then God just was, without time. The creation of the universe by God started a clock within the universe by which God Himself is not bound.


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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Where did God come from- "He was always there"

    Where did this singularity come from- "It was always there"


    If I may offer a bit of thought on this. Using words like "God" or "the singularity" are not clear descriptors. May I re-write as...

    Where did intelligence come from - "He was always there"

    How does intelligence come from a "singularity"? - It didn't have intelligence to start with. If it did then it is God.

    If one gives the attributes of God to the singularity then there is difference without distinction. So in a sense, the singularity is a descriptor of God.

    It boils down to this... can something happen without intelligence? That is the ultimate question. Can "intelligence" have never existed? After all, without intelligence, there can be no natural laws and then no rules of behavior or existence for the singularity. If you argue that the singularity creates its own natural laws then you have just made the singularity a God.

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    Regular Member Steeler-gal's Avatar
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    Creation, true, false, or unsure?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post

    However, none of us was there. No one can present one scrap of conclusive evidence one way or the other. Some folks will point to scientific "evidence" that says that the Earth is older than the biblical Creation story would seem to set it. However, they ignore one thing: Couldn't a God who brings an entire universe into existence create it with all that evidence of age already present?


    <o>
    Plus it is always assumed that since the story states that God created the earth and universe in 7 days that we are talking man-days, but what if a day to God is 1000 years to us?


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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    SNIP Time is a construct of the universe. It does not exist outside of the universe.

    SNIP
    <o>
    We don't know this.
    Last edited by georg jetson; 05-09-2013 at 10:01 AM.

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    Regular Member Mantioch's Avatar
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    I'm a Christian. I also have a decade and a half experience in computer engineering, including AI. I don't believe that it is possible for the wealth of complicated life to have come about by random interaction of particles. The Mathematics involved for that simply do not make sense. And all life is complicated. I subscribe to the assumption that if a tornado hits a junk yard, it doesn't produce a fully functioning 747, no matter how many times it happens. All that aside, here's some fun!

    I can't remember where I got this from, or if the numbers are accurate. Again, just for fun. Don't get your panties in a wad combing Google to refute

    1 in 175,223,510: Odds of winning Powerball

    1 in 100,000,000,000 (or 10^11): Generally accepted as the threshold of possibility

    1 in 10^53: The estimated number of electrons in the universe, which is a constant. Everything in the universe is made up of atoms having at least 1 electron. Dark matter aside.

    1 in 10^260: The probability of the simplest possible protein strand forming by itself as a result of chance occurrences and interactions between molecules.

    1 in 10^40,000: The probability of the simplest known cell forming purely by chance with random interactions between the before mentioned proteins - which came into being in sufficient quantities- by chance.

    1 in 100,000,000,000^123: The probability of a "Big Bang" explosion creating an orderly universe through random interactions.

    Probability that God exists and created the universe? Who know? But if I were a betting man...
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    Creation, true, false, or unsure?

    Maybe I should have phrased it this way: Time is a construct of the universe. There is zero reason to believe that it exists outside of the universe. Certainly, time as we know it doesn't! It would be the grossest of foolish assumptions to think it did.

    Better? I don't really care. Pick at the idea all you want. I have already started some rational folks thinking on their assumptions about time, and that is what matters.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mantioch View Post
    SNIP
    Probability that God exists and created the universe? Who know? But if I were a betting man...
    Well... that's um... 50/50 right?

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    Creation, true, false, or unsure?

    OK, fun with statistics. Half of the people who have ever walked on the face of the Earth are still walking on it alive today. Half have died. So, empirically speaking, you only have a 50-50 chance of ever dying.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Steeler-gal View Post
    Plus it is always assumed that since the story states that God created the earth and universe in 7 days that we are talking man-days, but what if a day to God is 1000 years to us?


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    Or what if a 1000 years to God is a day to us? The Bible states it both ways. This is not an equation. This shows time is meaningless to God, which is what eye95 has been saying.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Interesting discusion...

    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    "Always" implies time. Time is a construct of the universe. It does not exist outside of the universe.

    It is hard to cogitate on timelessness, but God tried to explain it in the Bible when Jesus said that He was the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. If God created everything (and I believe that He did), then God just was, without time. The creation of the universe by God started a clock within the universe by which God Himself is not bound.
    Where did he come from? I didn't mean to imply I was using the term always, but that this is the response I get from believers in God or believers in the Big Bang.

    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    If I may offer a bit of thought on this. Using words like "God" or "the singularity" are not clear descriptors. May I re-write as...

    Where did intelligence come from - "He was always there"

    How does intelligence come from a "singularity"? - It didn't have intelligence to start with. If it did then it is God.

    If one gives the attributes of God to the singularity then there is difference without distinction. So in a sense, the singularity is a descriptor of God.

    It boils down to this... can something happen without intelligence? That is the ultimate question. Can "intelligence" have never existed? After all, without intelligence, there can be no natural laws and then no rules of behavior or existence for the singularity. If you argue that the singularity creates its own natural laws then you have just made the singularity a God.
    Of course you are free to look at it anyway you want. My question goes to the basis of both ideologies being discussed here, Big Bang or God, where did they get there start, if it takes intelligence to create than who created God? Or if things sprung from a singularity without no God where did this singularity come from, I have heard compelling argument about matter being created from nothing, but this leaves out the fact that it still takes energy to make nothing into something...where'd that energy come from...

    Quote Originally Posted by Steeler-gal View Post
    Plus it is always assumed that since the story states that God created the earth and universe in 7 days that we are talking man-days, but what if a day to God is 1000 years to us?
    I have read the bible a few times, really like the anarchist society the Hebrews had enjoyed for a few centuries, my take on the whole day was simply it meant an era of time with no specifics, like listening to a Grandfather/Mother say "Back in my day".
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
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    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Asking where God came from implies that He did not exist, then he did. That implies time, but again, time is a construct of the universe and is not applicable to God. He just was.

    Not saying that you must accept what I am saying. I am just illustrating the internal consistency of what I believe, not unlike string theorists do because their theories are entirely unprovable. They check them for internal consistency.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Asking where God came from implies that He did not exist, then he did. That implies time, but again, time is a construct of the universe and is not applicable to God. He just was.

    Not saying that you must accept what I am saying. I am just illustrating the internal consistency of what I believe, not unlike string theorists do because their theories are entirely unprovable. They check them for internal consistency.
    Yes and the Big Bangers claim the singularity "just was".....personally until I have physical proof of either sides views I happily and satisfactorily remain unaffiliated.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    You will get proof of neither.

    So, maybe try logic instead.

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    Regular Member Mantioch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    Well... that's um... 50/50 right?
    Well, I don't think so. I mean I guess you can boil it down to that somehow - I'd have to think about the math. But I think that would be like saying your chances of winning the lottery are 50/50 as in you either will or you won't. I guess that's why I keep buying tickets
    Last edited by Mantioch; 05-09-2013 at 11:23 AM. Reason: Typo... again.
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