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Thread: Open Carry in car w/ no CCDW - concealed on your hip?

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    Regular Member Mantioch's Avatar
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    Open Carry in car w/ no CCDW - concealed on your hip?

    I apologize if this has been discussed - I spent some time searching the Kentucky boards and didn't see what I was looking for. What I would like to know is have any of you been pulled over or had interaction with a LEO while open carrying in your vehicle while the weapon was on your hip in a holster. I'm not looking for opinion about whether or not it is in fact concealed - the laws as I have read them are vague when it comes to this and seem up for Officer interpretation. So, what did officers you interacted with interpret? Curious to see what happened and if it has happened to anyone.

    Thanks, all!
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    Within the last month, I was pulled over at a sobriety checkpoint and I was openly carrying. I volunteered the information that I was carrying. He replied that he had already seen it. He wasn't curious if I had a CCDW or anything. In my case, it was a non-issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mantioch View Post
    I apologize if this has been discussed - I spent some time searching the Kentucky boards and didn't see what I was looking for. What I would like to know is have any of you been pulled over or had interaction with a LEO while open carrying in your vehicle while the weapon was on your hip in a holster. I'm not looking for opinion about whether or not it is in fact concealed - the laws as I have read them are vague when it comes to this and seem up for Officer interpretation. So, what did officers you interacted with interpret? Curious to see what happened and if it has happened to anyone.

    Thanks, all!
    Ask CharleyCherokee how his interaction went while he was openly carrying in his vehicle. What really makes his story awful, other than the unlawful detention and arrest, is that he went through the whole ordeal because a "peace officer" detained him at a damn sobriety check-point for a legal act!

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    I've been thinking about this a lot lately. From the black and white it seems as if the only way to lawfully carry, that is documented in the KRS, without a CCDW in KY, is in a factory installed compartment. It begs the question "is it technically illegal to carry holstered (legal when pedestre) without a CCDW in a vehicle in the commonwealth?"

    From my interpretation (I refuse to use the acronym for I am not a lawyer), it is not legal..

    That's not to say that KY LEO's won't press the subject.. but if they wanted to, to my understanding there is no precedent.

    Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong. (About a precedent, or some legal writing. Opinions mean nothing in this discussion.)

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    Regular Member LEX_XDM40compact's Avatar
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    I made a post that mentioned this same regard a few weeks ago and got burnt pretty bad from everyone here about carrying a holstered firearm in the vehicle without a CCDW.

    However Ill still stand by my knowledge and how the law states that it should be in a factory installed compartment . Unless of course you do have a CCDW.

    I believe the law is written pretty self explanatory. I recently read thru many other state laws in regards to traveling and carrying a firearm. The states that allow you to carry on your person inside a vehicle without a permit it states you must carry it on your person "concealed" etc.

    However it IS a big black and white with grey lines between on how its interrupted. Like glockster mentioned here in Kentucky its not always a smooth encounter when carrying and driving.

    The grey line with carrying inside a vehicle was the main selling point for me to get my CCDW.

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    Regular Member LEX_XDM40compact's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    Please, give us a cite of the law that says a gun "should" be in a factory installed compartment. Actually, it only says that if it is in one of those, it is not considered concealed. It doesn't exclude any other method of OC. I guess you would also say that a gun on the seat or dashboard is illegal, since its not where it "should" be; in a manufacturers compartment. If what you are saying is true, how would a person get home from the gun store prior to 1996. I remember how it was before we had CC licenses and a gun in the glove box or any other compartment was concealed. The only legal way to carry was openly. That meant on the seat, on the dashboard or on your belt. When we got CC licenses we didn't give up any of those, we just got CC on top of what we already had. By the way, other state's laws don't apply here. How does one carry on his person "concealed" without a permit?
    I understand this. However most mentions here on the forums are about openly carrying on ones person while in the car. Not in plain sight open carry via the vehicle.

    "(8) A loaded or unloaded firearm or other deadly weapon shall not be deemed concealed on or about the person if it is located in any enclosed container, compartment, or storage space [regularly] installed as
    original equipment in a motor vehicle by its manufacturer,"

    "shall not be deemed concealed on or about the person" IF it is located in any enclosed container etc..

    The fact the law mentions its not concealed on a person if its in one of those is my reasoning for my previous post.

    Im well aware of how it reads and what it means, And as others have mentioned it is a fine grey line between the two of concealed and open. When you are "open" carrying on your hip via a holster while sitting and driving in all honesty its not "Open carry" or "easily visible for anyone to notice you are carrying", or how it was written or has been cited by rulings to be open.

    My arguments has never been for truly openly carrying in your vehicle via other means as duck taped on the dash, sitting in the front seat, in the factory gun box/case in a seat, on a gun rack, or other ways it can "easily be visible for anyone to notice you are carrying"
    Last edited by LEX_XDM40compact; 05-12-2013 at 02:01 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    I will attempt to correct you, because you are very wrong. The portion of the law that mentions factory installed compartments only says that you can't be charged with carrying a concealed deadly weapon if you put your gun in one of those compartments. Why? Because then it is considered open carrying and the concealed weapons laws don't apply. This is not the only way to open carry in a car, just one that is spelled out because it is new and had been illegal prior to this change. This has only been the law in Ky for 2 years, if it was the only way to OC, how did anyone carry in a car before 2 years ago, unless they had a CDWL. If I am walking down a street with a gun, in a belt holster, in the open, I am OC. If I then get into a car, that weapon does not magically become a concealed weapon. Concealed means hidden. Unless you do something to hide the gun it, is not concealed. By your logic it must be illegal to wear a blue shirt on Tuesday, because it is not "documented" in the KRS that you can. In order to charge you with a crime the government must have a charge and state what law you have broken and there is no law against OC in a car. If a factory installed compartment is the only legal way for a person without a CDWL to transport a weapon in a car, how did that same person get a gun home from the gun store prior to this change in the law 2 years ago?
    Correct. I asked the instructor from my CC class about OCing while driving or even riding in a vehicle. He told me when you step out of your vehicle if the weapon is open and visible, then you are still OCing when you are seated in a vehicle if the weapon is holstered on your side. No need to remove from your holster and put in glovebox, seat or anywhere else. Oh yeah, he is also a retired Ky cop.

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    Thank you gutshot for pointing out my misinterpretation of the law. Going back and re-reading it after taking your points into consideration, it's obvious that it makes no mention that simply having an openly carried holstered firearm on one's person in a vehicle is concealment. It points out that it is not considered concealed if it's placed in the containers specified as outlined in KRS 527.020 section 8.
    Last edited by molonlabe821; 05-12-2013 at 01:18 PM. Reason: clarity

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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsharp72 View Post
    Correct. I asked the instructor from my CC class about OCing while driving or even riding in a vehicle. He told me when you step out of your vehicle if the weapon is open and visible, then you are still OCing when you are seated in a vehicle if the weapon is holstered on your side. No need to remove from your holster and put in glovebox, seat or anywhere else. Oh yeah, he is also a retired Ky cop.
    What does that have to do with anything?
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    What does that have to do with anything?
    When you are OCing, you never see the weapon from 360 degrees. If I have my gun holstered on my right side and you are on my left you cant see my weapon. Does that mean since you cant see it, it is concealed? No. Same applies in a vehicle if it is holstered in the open.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsharp72 View Post
    When you are OCing, you never see the weapon from 360 degrees. If I have my gun holstered on my right side and you are on my left you cant see my weapon. Does that mean since you cant see it, it is concealed? No. Same applies in a vehicle if it is holstered in the open.
    jsharp I think he was specifically asking how the instructor being a retired cop was relevant to your point. (he bolded that part in the quote)

    What he was getting at was something people always talk about on these forums: Cops are not the best source of legal advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by molonlabe821 View Post
    jsharp I think he was specifically asking how the instructor being a retired cop was relevant to your point. (he bolded that part in the quote)

    What he was getting at was something people always talk about on these forums: Cops are not the best source of legal advice.
    Oh, ok I didn't notice the bolded part.

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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by molonlabe821 View Post
    jsharp I think he was specifically asking how the instructor being a retired cop was relevant to your point. (he bolded that part in the quote)

    What he was getting at was something people always talk about on these forums: Cops are not the best source of legal advice.
    Correct Not all LEO's give bad information. To LEO's credit they have a pretty thick KRS book to learn. We, for the most part only focus on gun related KRS's. The problem that I see when asking LEO for gun law advice is 1) They do not know for sure and would rather give you bad information rather than admit that they don't know. 2) They have been given some bad information themselves and don't know any better. 3) They could be anti-gun and would lie to discourage you from carrying.
    Last edited by self preservation; 05-12-2013 at 09:50 PM.
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    WOW! There are some serious misinterpretations of the law being mentioned here.

    Nowhere in the KRS does it state open carry is illegal, therefore it is NOT illegal.

    We only have statutes that tell us what we cannot do, not what we can do. There are a few exceptions, and KRS 527.020is an exception. It informs us that carrying in ANY factory installed storage compartment is legal without a CDWL, and that doing so is a form of carry that the General Assembly has exempted from the "concealed on one's person" definition. The only reason it even states "shall not be deemed concealed on or about the person" is because they have specifically exempted this mode of carry from being concealed carry. Something else we must look at is the beginning of KRS 527.020. It states that in order for someone to be carrying a firearm concealed, it must be ON OR ABOUT the person and concealed from view. This means the firearm must be within immediate reach and concealed, or on someone's person and concealed. Since a firearm in a glove-box or console is within a person's IMMEDIATE reach while in a vehicle and also concealed, it would be considered CONCEALED carry -- by definition in the statutes -- and this is precisely why it is mentioned as being EXEMPTED from the ON OR ABOUT THE PERSON and CONCEALED definition.

    Nowhere in the KRS does it state setting in a vehicle with a firearm holstered on your hip is illegal or that it is concealed carry. Nowhere in the KRS does it state a firearm setting in plain-view on your passenger seat or dashboard is illegal. It doesn't mention these actions in the KRS because they are LEGAL acts.

    Just because something isn't spelled out in the KRS does NOT mean we cannot do it. If this was the case we wouldn't be able to do anything, not even set in our house, because the statutes do not specifically state that such an act is legal. The statutes inform us of what is illegal, and they also exempt certain acts that would be illegal if NOT specifically exempted. They do NOT tell us what we CAN do!

    KRS 527.020 is about CONCEALED CARRY and NOTHING else! This, along with open carry being a constitutional right, is precisely why open carry is NOT mentioned in the statute.

    You CAN NOT be charged with something unless the act you are being charged with is SPECIFICALLY mentioned in the KRS as being ILLEGAL! If an act is not mentioned in the KRS as being an illegal act, then it is a LEGAL act. Keeping a firearm on your belt is LEGAL without having a CDWL because an officer could move to another vantage point and see the firearm in plain-view -- plain-view means NOT concealed!
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    Correct Not all LEO's give bad information. To LEO's credit they have a pretty thick KRS book to learn. We, for the most part only focus on gun related KRS's. The problem that I see when asking LEO for gun law advice is 1) They do not know for sure and would rather give you bad imformation rather than admit that they don't know. 2) They have been given some bad imformation themselves and don't know any better. 3) They could be anti-gun and would lie to discourage you from carrying.
    They make for an EXTREMELY thick book with very SMALL print! Thankfully, we only have to memorize KRS chapters 500 to 533, and a few other criminal chapters such as 189A and 218A. I can tell you right now chapters 189A, 218A and 514 are the heavily used chapters. We also see quite a few arrests for violations of chapter 508, but I would guess the three I mentioned result in over 90% of arrests.

    I made an arrest this week for two violations of chapter 514 that involved the same individual. I don't take kindly to people telling me they will beat my head in! But other than this one arrest every other arrest I have made has been for the execution of bench/arrest warrants that were for original charges of violations of the three chapters listed above. All the other chapters are rarely used, but most of them are certainly needed.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    They make for an EXTREMELY thick book with very SMALL print! Thankfully, we only have to memorize KRS chapters 500 to 533, and a few other criminal chapters such as 189A and 218A. I can tell you right now chapters 189A, 218A and 514 are the heavily used chapters. We also see quite a few arrests for violations of chapter 508, but I would guess the three I mentioned result in over 90% of arrests.

    I made an arrest this week for two violations of chapter 514 that involved the same individual. I don't take kindly to people telling me they will beat my head in! But other than this one arrest every other arrest I have made has been for the execution of bench/arrest warrants that were for original charges of violations of the three chapters listed above. All the other chapters are rarely used, but most of them are certainly needed.
    We have a 96 edition KRS book here at work that I thumb through from time to time just for fun. It is rather thick with small print. When I was working part time dispatch most of the calls that I dispatched out involved the above mentioned statutes. A "10-15" coming over the radio from the LEO was usually I heard next. Thanks for adding clarification to all the misunderstanding that was going on. Prime example of what I was talking about when I said sometimes LEO gives good information.
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    Glockster, maybe you had a knot that needed beat back flat with the rest of your head? It may have been completely innocent.



    I think everyone has to understand definitions. Without defining a word in a KRS then it reverts back to COMMON definition. This KRS specially defines a weapon in a factory installed compartment as not being concealed. Even though being in the factory compartment would be concealed in the common definition. No matter how they define it that definition stands before anything else. They can define "black" to include purple and it would stand.

    Since concealed isn't define properly (though it does have some exemptions) then we must use the common definition.

    Concealed:
    Keep from sight; hide.
    Keep (something) secret; prevent from being known or noticed: "love that they had to conceal from others".

    So, something can be concealed by something such as a tree, a house, or a vehicle. But just because a vehicle conceals a firearm does not mean that the firearm is concealed.

    If it can be seen easily from somewhere, such as the passenger side window, then it is not concealed.

    So, in my opinion, you can legally wear a firearm on your hip while seated in a vehicle. Just because you can though don't mean that you should. If you have a chance of needing the firearm it would be best to have it somewhere else. Seat belts and seat backs can hinder a draw.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    Glockster, maybe you had a knot that needed beat back flat with the rest of your head? It may have been completely innocent.
    HAHA, that could've been his intent. I will see how his defense attorney spins it when we go to court. That would be one argument I guess. Of course he tried to claim that is not EXACTLY what was said, but I had another deputy who witnessed it so it's hard to talk your way out of such a charge.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    HAHA, that could've been his intent. I will see how his defense attorney spins it when we go to court. That would be one argument I guess. Of course he tried to claim that is not EXACTLY what was said, but I had another deputy who witnessed it so it's hard to talk your way out of such a charge.
    Such a strong reason for people to record police encounters. No doubt this is on the up and up. But as we all know when you're innocent and it's your word against 2 LEO's, as you say it would be hard to beat in court.
    Last edited by self preservation; 05-13-2013 at 04:54 PM.
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    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Regular Member Mantioch's Avatar
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    All, I sincerely appreciate all of the thoughtful responses. I think I fell for the logical legal fallacy that if something was defined as "shall not be deemed" then anything else was automatically "shall be deemed." Obviously, that is not correct.

    I do agree with the observation that it may well be more difficult to access your sidearm from a holster under a seatbelt if it is ever needed. However, the fear is that removing it from the holster, placing it in the glove box and then back again is a lot of "administrative" handling of a firearm that greatly increases he chance of a ND or getting charged with brandishing, as I saw somewhere else in this forum over the weekend. I don't think that was in Kentucky, but it gave me pause. If memory serves, it was a dad removing his weapon from a CC holster and locking it in the glove box.
    Last edited by Mantioch; 05-13-2013 at 09:58 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    Such a strong reason for people to record police encounters. No doubt this is on the up and up. But as we all know when you're innocent and it's your word against 2 LEO's, as you say it would be hard to beat in court.
    You are right. This time the recording ended up bad for him though, because it is on audio and video so it is pretty much open and shut already.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    You are right. This time the recording ended up bad for him though, because it is on audio and video so it is pretty much open and shut already.
    This is why EVERYONE should record their interactions in some circumstances. Recordings can be used to protect people, even the police.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    This is why EVERYONE should record their interactions in some circumstances. Recordings can be used to protect people, even the police.
    It can be argued that police, acting as agents of the government, don't need to be protected; after all, they're supposed to "protect and serve" us.

    Wonder if I could get away with commanding a cop to serv(ice) me :3 Heeeeeeeeyyyyyyyy Glockster~~~~~~~<3 ;3
    Last edited by DrakeZ07; 05-15-2013 at 02:48 AM.
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