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Thread: Lake Thunderbird, No Guns?

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    Lake Thunderbird, No Guns?

    I was at Lake Thunderbird yesterday and I noticed that on their sign for use of the area I was at that it said firearms are prohibited. I didn't have mine with me as I was there for work, but are they able to ban firearms at lake Thunderbird? The area had a dock, boat launch, and "camping" sites (if you call power plugins and the ability to park an RV camping). The area also said no daily use without paying, so I don't know if it's somehow privately owned or what.

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    Part of thunderbird is corp of engineers, which is federal therefore restricted. You may have been in one of those areas.

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    Awhile back I spoke with the chief ranger over all the state parks. Even though the parks are posted, persons with a valid permit are exempt from that sign. The rangers don't want ever Tom, Dick and Harry out at the lake with their guns getting drunk. If spotted a ranger will probably ask to see your permit.

    Also as previously mentioned, you can not carry on CoE land. I don't know if any part of Thunderbird is CoE land, but it is possible.
    I am not a lawyer and nothing I say should be accepted as legal advice

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    Regular Member Robert318's Avatar
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    Where in the SDA does it list COE property as being prohibited? The SDA only says federal buildings for purpose of doing business with the public and specifically exempts parks but not the buildings in the parks?

    And here in lies the violation of the 2nd amendment that is constantly overlooked or tolerated primarily because the majority can't afford to take it to the courts and those that can just hire armed security.

    So many different provisions of law that you practically have to be an attorney to be able to interpret or know where to find the provisions, that the laws effectively disarms the law abiding out of fear of prosecution because ignorance of the law is no excuse and since there are more that respect the rule of law they go unarmed unlike the criminals who don't care.

    Why does our laws not respect our laws? What part of "shall not be infringed" don't the lawmakers understand or the people continue to put lawmakers in place that don't respect that and hide behind the façade the legality of legislation is for the courts to sort out when they are the ones writing the laws!

    And who on this planet ever stays home all the time for the 2A to only provide for the ability to protect ones self while at home? What law is higher than another if one law says you can and one says you can't? Is not the Bill of Rights there to tell the lawmakers what laws they can't make? Isn't the government supposed to be "Of the people and By the People"? And who's land is really their land if the state or fed govt can claim
    eminent domain or just condemn your place if you don't like the money they offer?

    I do respect the law but am very irritated by laws or rules that punish good people and do nothing to stop the bad but merely provide for their punishment IF they get caught and even then doesn't deter them from doing it again! Our laws need to provide for the good people to protect themselves from the wicked at all times and at all places not provide protection for the criminals an easier less risky chance to kill, steal, or destroy because the ones that respect the law are told they have to be defenseless and to call or rely on the cops that only come after you have been victimized.

    I know my rant is a little off of the OP but the issues directly affect the need to even ask the OP.
    Stay safe and God bless.

    Everyone will hate you because of me.
    But not a hair of your head will perish.
    Stand firm, and you will win life.
    (Luke 21:17-19 NIV)

    "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin

    "The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time; the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them.",
    "No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms."Thomas Jefferson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert318 View Post
    Where in the SDA does it list COE property as being prohibited? The SDA only says federal buildings for purpose of doing business with the public and specifically exempts parks but not the buildings in the parks?

    And here in lies the violation of the 2nd amendment that is constantly overlooked or tolerated primarily because the majority can't afford to take it to the courts and those that can just hire armed security.

    So many different provisions of law that you practically have to be an attorney to be able to interpret or know where to find the provisions, that the laws effectively disarms the law abiding out of fear of prosecution because ignorance of the law is no excuse and since there are more that respect the rule of law they go unarmed unlike the criminals who don't care.

    Why does our laws not respect our laws? What part of "shall not be infringed" don't the lawmakers understand or the people continue to put lawmakers in place that don't respect that and hide behind the façade the legality of legislation is for the courts to sort out when they are the ones writing the laws!

    And who on this planet ever stays home all the time for the 2A to only provide for the ability to protect ones self while at home? What law is higher than another if one law says you can and one says you can't? Is not the Bill of Rights there to tell the lawmakers what laws they can't make? Isn't the government supposed to be "Of the people and By the People"? And who's land is really their land if the state or fed govt can claim
    eminent domain or just condemn your place if you don't like the money they offer?

    I do respect the law but am very irritated by laws or rules that punish good people and do nothing to stop the bad but merely provide for their punishment IF they get caught and even then doesn't deter them from doing it again! Our laws need to provide for the good people to protect themselves from the wicked at all times and at all places not provide protection for the criminals an easier less risky chance to kill, steal, or destroy because the ones that respect the law are told they have to be defenseless and to call or rely on the cops that only come after you have been victimized.

    I know my rant is a little off of the OP but the issues directly affect the need to even ask the OP.
    The SDA doesn't cover CoE property because CoE is Federal. The state can't do anything about it.
    I am not a lawyer and nothing I say should be accepted as legal advice

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    Regular Member Robert318's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrdware View Post
    The SDA doesn't cover CoE property because CoE is Federal. The state can't do anything about it.
    If that we're true that the state can't do anything then how would the firearms freedom act been possible or enforceable if a federal ban had been enacted, it's federal? There are other federal properties that are legal to carry on but still prohibit entry to buildings while armed. Isn't any prohibition from the federal or state levels an infringement? So which law is higher the Bill of Rights or the COE? They can't prohibit freedom of religion or press or free speech but can prohibit being armed all of which are protected under the Bill of rights. What's next no talking while on COE or government land. Better yet no hands, feet, or brains these are also weapons that can be used for good or bad. I can understand a need for security but an infringement is an infringement!
    Stay safe and God bless.

    Everyone will hate you because of me.
    But not a hair of your head will perish.
    Stand firm, and you will win life.
    (Luke 21:17-19 NIV)

    "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin

    "The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time; the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them.",
    "No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms."Thomas Jefferson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert318 View Post
    If that we're true that the state can't do anything then how would the firearms freedom act been possible or enforceable if a federal ban had been enacted, it's federal? There are other federal properties that are legal to carry on but still prohibit entry to buildings while armed. Isn't any prohibition from the federal or state levels an infringement? So which law is higher the Bill of Rights or the COE? They can't prohibit freedom of religion or press or free speech but can prohibit being armed all of which are protected under the Bill of rights. What's next no talking while on COE or government land. Better yet no hands, feet, or brains these are also weapons that can be used for good or bad. I can understand a need for security but an infringement is an infringement!
    The Firearms Freedom Act would have worked because the ATF gets its regulatory power from the interstate commerce clause. If firearms were manufactured in the state, sold in the state, and kept in the state, then no interstate commerce happened and therefore the ATF does not get to regulate those items.

    Technically, the thing with the CoE is a rule, not a law. It works like gun buster signs at businesses do. The difference is that one is at a private business, the other is government land. Please don't mistake my understanding and explanation as agreement, it isn't.

    Can you tell me what other federal properties you are referring to?
    I am not a lawyer and nothing I say should be accepted as legal advice

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrdware View Post
    The Firearms Freedom Act would have worked because the ATF gets its regulatory power from the interstate commerce clause. If firearms were manufactured in the state, sold in the state, and kept in the state, then no interstate commerce happened and therefore the ATF does not get to regulate those items.

    Technically, the thing with the CoE is a rule, not a law. It works like gun buster signs at businesses do. The difference is that one is at a private business, the other is government land. Please don't mistake my understanding and explanation as agreement, it isn't.

    Can you tell me what other federal properties you are referring to?
    Isnt in agreement with what my rant or their restriction?

    The first one that comes to mind is a national monument Mt Rushmore national park, the other I'm pretty sure is also federal is the whicita wildlife refuge. At Rushmore the only signs were at the entrances to the building stating it was a federal offense to enter with a weapon. It has been awile since I last visited the wildlife refuge but don't recall seeing any signs there.
    Stay safe and God bless.

    Everyone will hate you because of me.
    But not a hair of your head will perish.
    Stand firm, and you will win life.
    (Luke 21:17-19 NIV)

    "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin

    "The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time; the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them.",
    "No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms."Thomas Jefferson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert318 View Post
    Isnt in agreement with what my rant or their restriction?
    With the restriction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert318 View Post
    The first one that comes to mind is a national monument Mt Rushmore national park, the other I'm pretty sure is also federal is the whicita wildlife refuge. At Rushmore the only signs were at the entrances to the building stating it was a federal offense to enter with a weapon. It has been awile since I last visited the wildlife refuge but don't recall seeing any signs there.
    Both of these are national parks properties and fall under the Forestry service which about 2 years ago decided to follow state law regarding carrying of firearms on their property.
    I am not a lawyer and nothing I say should be accepted as legal advice

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert318 View Post
    Isnt in agreement with what my rant or their restriction?

    The first one that comes to mind is a national monument Mt Rushmore national park, the other I'm pretty sure is also federal is the whicita wildlife refuge. At Rushmore the only signs were at the entrances to the building stating it was a federal offense to enter with a weapon. It has been awile since I last visited the wildlife refuge but don't recall seeing any signs there.
    National Parks Service is ok except in buildings.

    Corp of Engineers is different entity and different rules.
    I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do those things to other people and I require the same of them.

    Politicians should serve two terms, one in office and one in prison.(borrowed from RioKid)

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldCurlyWolf View Post
    National Parks Service is ok except in buildings.

    Corp of Engineers is different entity and different rules.
    So CoE isn't federal? But outside of federal or state law so they don't have to adhere to the BoR or SDA and can operate as private land owners? Is their rules and property lines public info and if so where does one find such info?
    Last edited by Robert318; 05-14-2013 at 07:25 PM.
    Stay safe and God bless.

    Everyone will hate you because of me.
    But not a hair of your head will perish.
    Stand firm, and you will win life.
    (Luke 21:17-19 NIV)

    "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin

    "The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time; the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them.",
    "No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms."Thomas Jefferson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert318 View Post
    So CoE isn't federal? But outside of federal or state law so they don't have to adhere to the BoR or SDA and can operate as private land owners? Is their rules and property lines public info and if so where does one find such info?
    CoE is Federal but is operated under a different section of law. CoE falls under USC 36. Here is a link to rules regarding CoE land:http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/36/327
    I am not a lawyer and nothing I say should be accepted as legal advice

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    I spoke with the district commander for our area today. He said that the district covers three states and the region covers 6 states. At this time they will not approve written exceptions to carry on COE land. If it were a special event it would be taken under consideration. I just had to ask as my mother-in-law's property backs up to COE land. It would have been nice to carry while fishing the creek but no such luck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrdware View Post
    CoE is Federal but is operated under a different section of law. CoE falls under USC 36. Here is a link to rules regarding CoE land:http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/36/327
    § 327.26
    State and local laws.
    (a) Except as otherwise provided in this part or by Federal law or regulation, state and local laws and ordinances shall apply on project lands and waters. This includes, but is not limited to, state and local laws and ordinances governing:
    (1) Operation and use of motor vehicles, vessels, and aircraft;
    (2) Hunting, fishing and trapping;
    (3) Use or possession of firearms or other weapons;
    (4) Civil disobedience and criminal acts;
    (5) Littering, sanitation and pollution; and
    (6) Alcohol or other controlled substances.
    (b) These state and local laws and ordinances are enforced by those state and local enforcement agencies established and authorized for that purpose.
    [65 FR 6903, Feb. 11, 2000]
    Last edited by Charles Wagoner; 07-01-2013 at 11:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Wagoner View Post
    § 327.26
    State and local laws.
    (a) Except as otherwise provided in this part or by Federal law or regulation, state and local laws and ordinances shall apply on project lands and waters. This includes, but is not limited to, state and local laws and ordinances governing:
    (1) Operation and use of motor vehicles, vessels, and aircraft;
    (2) Hunting, fishing and trapping;
    (3) Use or possession of firearms or other weapons;
    (4) Civil disobedience and criminal acts;
    (5) Littering, sanitation and pollution; and
    (6) Alcohol or other controlled substances.
    (b) These state and local laws and ordinances are enforced by those state and local enforcement agencies established and authorized for that purpose.
    [65 FR 6903, Feb. 11, 2000]
    Since item (a) says Except as otherwise provided in this part or by Federal law and this is included in the in Federal law,

    § 327.13
    Explosives, firearms, other weapons and fireworks.
    (a) The possession of loaded firearms, ammunition, loaded projectile firing devices, bows and arrows, crossbows, or other weapons is prohibited unless:
    (1) In the possession of a Federal, state or local law enforcement officer;
    (2) Being used for hunting or fishing as permitted under § 327.8, with devices being unloaded when transported to, from or between hunting and fishing sites;
    (3) Being used at authorized shooting ranges; or
    (4) Written permission has been received from the District Commander.
    (b) Possession of explosives or explosive devices of any kind, including fireworks or other pyrotechnics, is prohibited unless written permission has been received from the District Commander.
    [65 FR 6901, Feb. 11, 2000]

    it seems that state laws on this issue don't matter.

    State hunting laws would apply when hunting on CoE land, but I still don't believe it would be legal to carry a firearm on CoE property.
    I am not a lawyer and nothing I say should be accepted as legal advice

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    Found this in the 2013-2014 Oklahoma hunting guide.

    I found this in the current OK hunting guide and just thought i would share.

    Firearms, Fireworks & Explosives Restrictions
    Fully automatic firearms are prohibited for use on any Department-managed lands, except as otherwise provided for military training.
    No person shall use or possess any explosive devices, including fireworks, firecrackers or ex- ploding targets, on Department-managed lands.
    Suppressors may not be used to hunt game animals, game or nongame birds on Depart- ment-managed lands.
    The possession of loaded firearms, ammu- nition, loaded projectile firing devices, bows and arrows, crossbows, explosives or explosive devices of any kind including fireworks is pro- hibited on all U.S. Army Corps of Engineers project lands except as permitted for hunting purposes during authorized hunting seasons or being used at an authorized shooting range.
    Firearms & Crossbow Transport
    It is unlawful for any person to transport a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle on any Depart- ment-managed area, except under provisions of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act.
    Muzzleloaders may be transported in a mo- tor vehicle with a loaded powder charge and bullet as long as the gun is uncapped or battery is disconnected.
    No crossbow may be transported in a mo- tor vehicle unless uncocked or disassembled. No bow that is at full or partial draw may be transported in a motor vehicle.
    Stay safe and God bless.

    Everyone will hate you because of me.
    But not a hair of your head will perish.
    Stand firm, and you will win life.
    (Luke 21:17-19 NIV)

    "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin

    "The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time; the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them.",
    "No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms."Thomas Jefferson

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    The Corps of Engineers doesn't own property at Lake Thunderbird. The Bureau of Reclamation built and owns the dam, the State of Oklahoma owns the remainder of the land around the lake. The Bureau of reclamation doesn't regulate firearms, and you all know what the State of Oklahoma does. CCW to your heart's content at "Dirtybird." Just don't carry into any buildings that do business with the public.

    http://www.wildlifedepartment.com/fi...akecontact.htm

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