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Thread: Armed Security Told 'No Guns Allowed' at Greenfield Community Center

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Armed Security Told 'No Guns Allowed' at Greenfield Community Center

    http://greenfield.patch.com/articles...uspatc00000001

    The security officers told police they would leave the party because they did not want to leave their firearms in their vehicles.
    I wonder if those security people will try to push for stronger state preemption?
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    1) What kind of a birthday party are they throwing that they need security?
    2) Notice that later in the evening there was a noise complaint & police had to come back?
    3) I hope they & their company work for stronger preemption, instead of just added 'security guard' to the LEO exemption

    4) At the very bottom of their listing of other 'crimes' is this gem:
    Police checking on an occupied vehicle parked near South Crandon Place and West Forest Home Avenue arrested one occupant for carrying a concealed weapon – a BB gun – and possession of drug paraphernalia and another occupant for possession of marijuana
    941.23 Any person, other than one of the following, who carries a concealed and dangerous weapon is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.

    939.22(10) "Dangerous weapon" means any firearm, whether loaded or unloaded; any device designed as a weapon and capable of producing death or great bodily harm... or any other device or instrumentality which, in the manner it is used or intended to be used, is calculated or likely to produce death or great bodily harm.

    Except in the rare case of putting an eye out (which isn't the way it's intended to be used) I wouldn't say a BB gun is "calculated or likely to produce death or great bodily harm".
    So no matter where the toy was in the car, they can't get a conviction on ccw.
    Greenfield PD seems about as educated on ccw as Milwaukee PD.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 05-15-2013 at 08:12 PM.

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    On that thread in "The Patch" somebody just provided some citations for the "Greenfield Police" commenter to review.

    Apparently, the "Greenfield Police" poster is trying to push the idea that since being shot in the eye with a BB gun, could cause great bodily harm, the BB gun is now a dangerous weapon.

    Hope you don't conceal a pen, keys or a popsicle stick in Greenfield!
    Wis. CCL #5x Springfield XDM 3.8 Compact .40 S&W, Utah CFP

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E6chevron View Post
    On that thread in "The Patch" somebody just provided some citations for the "Greenfield Police" commenter to review.

    Apparently, the "Greenfield Police" poster is trying to push the idea that since being shot in the eye with a BB gun, could cause great bodily harm, the BB gun is now a dangerous weapon.

    Hope you don't conceal a pen, keys or a popsicle stick in Greenfield!
    Add bouquets of roses to that, I distinctly recall an incident of a rose thorn causing a death.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E6chevron
    somebody just provided some citations for the "Greenfield Police" commenter to review.
    I see some more have been added under their original comment. Talk about egg on their faces!
    I hope the reporter follows up & lets people know that those false charges have been dropped, & the officers have been edjumacatedized.

    Apparently, the "Greenfield Police" poster is trying to push the idea that since being shot in the eye with a BB gun, could cause great bodily harm, the BB gun is now a dangerous weapon.
    Since that outcome would be a fluke rather than the way the toy is designed or intended to be used, there's no way they can should get that past a judge. Hopefully the ADA assigned to the case is smart enough not to waste time on that charge.

    The drug charges, however... Assuming for the sake of argument that they were actually in possession of drugs & what someone could consider as paraphernalia, if they're dumb enough to be in public while in possession, might they not also be dumb enough to drive under the influence, thereby endangering many other people?
    IMO, whatever you want to do to yourself in private is your own concern. When you affect others, the gov't has some say in protecting people.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Add bouquets of roses to that, I distinctly recall an incident of a rose thorn causing a death.
    Also a serious, hard to diagnose and treat "rose thorn disease - dangerous.
    http://voices.yahoo.com/rose-thorn-disease-1047099.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    I see some more have been added under their original comment. Talk about egg on their faces!
    I hope the reporter follows up & lets people know that those false charges have been dropped, & the officers have been edjumacatedized.

    Since that outcome would be a fluke rather than the way the toy is designed or intended to be used, there's no way they can should get that past a judge. Hopefully the ADA assigned to the case is smart enough not to waste time on that charge.

    The drug charges, however... Assuming for the sake of argument that they were actually in possession of drugs & what someone could consider as paraphernalia, if they're dumb enough to be in public while in possession, might they not also be dumb enough to drive under the influence, thereby endangering many other people?
    IMO, whatever you want to do to yourself in private is your own concern. When you affect others, the gov't has some say in protecting people.
    Here's some information I found on the harmless BB gun:

    Flesh wounds are bad enough. But some BB guns are so powerful that their round pellets can actually penetrate the skin. In children up to fourteen years of age, they don't have a lot of muscle mass that can deflect BBs. The result is that the BBs can penetrate through their skin and travel into their chests or abdomens. And, maybe even damage vital organs. That's what happened to an eight-year-old boy who was accidentally shot in the chest by his thirteen-year-old friend. The pellet entered his chest, pierced his heart and killed him. (cbsnews.com, 2004) This is why everyone who shoots a BB gun needs to know and follow some basic BB gun safety tips.

    Deaths and Other BB Gun-Related Injuries
    According to the CDC, there are about four BB gun-related deaths a year. Four too many. John Mahoney of New Hope, Pennsylvania would probably agree with that statement. If he could. You see, Tucker got a BB gun for his sixteenth birthday in 1999. A friend and him were firing the gun just days after. Thinking the gun had run out of pellets, Mahoney's friend pointed and fired it at him. An undetected BB that was in the gun hit Tucker in the head. The close-range shot injured Tucker's brain and left him being practically a vegetable.

    Knowing and using BB gun safety tips can help prevent accidents like these from happening.

    JJC

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJC View Post
    Here's some information I found on the harmless BB gun:

    Flesh wounds are bad enough. But some BB guns are so powerful that their round pellets can actually penetrate the skin. In children up to fourteen years of age, they don't have a lot of muscle mass that can deflect BBs. The result is that the BBs can penetrate through their skin and travel into their chests or abdomens. And, maybe even damage vital organs. That's what happened to an eight-year-old boy who was accidentally shot in the chest by his thirteen-year-old friend. The pellet entered his chest, pierced his heart and killed him. (cbsnews.com, 2004) This is why everyone who shoots a BB gun needs to know and follow some basic BB gun safety tips.

    Deaths and Other BB Gun-Related Injuries
    According to the CDC, there are about four BB gun-related deaths a year. Four too many. John Mahoney of New Hope, Pennsylvania would probably agree with that statement. If he could. You see, Tucker got a BB gun for his sixteenth birthday in 1999. A friend and him were firing the gun just days after. Thinking the gun had run out of pellets, Mahoney's friend pointed and fired it at him. An undetected BB that was in the gun hit Tucker in the head. The close-range shot injured Tucker's brain and left him being practically a vegetable.

    Knowing and using BB gun safety tips can help prevent accidents like these from happening.

    JJC
    When you find something like that, please always include a link in order to share the actual article.

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    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    It appears to have been written by Kassidy Emerson of the "Yahoo! Contributor Network".
    http://voices.yahoo.com/basic-bb-gun...ps-498304.html
    And s/he (JJC) didn't post the whole op-ed piece.

    For a step up in reliability (at least the articles have some references), let's try wiki:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BB_gun
    "projectiles are usually spherical but can also be pointed/or triangular; those are usually used for bird hunting"
    "First introduced in 1938, the BB gun became an iconic American toy"

    Yes, if they're pointed at a person they can bruise, injure, or in fluke cases kill.
    But again, look at the legal description of ccw in the WI law, which requires a "dangerous weapon", and the definition thereof certainly excludes BB toys.

    Given that this is in Milwaukee County, it wouldn't surprise me if the DA actually pursued the "BB toy as a dangerous weapon" angle. Should just drop it & run with the drug charges, which are more serious anyway.
    (All of which relies on the stop & then the search being legal...)
    Last edited by MKEgal; 05-17-2013 at 09:20 PM.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    A PSA regarding school premises(your car and a school parking lot) and BB Guns...
    948.61  Dangerous weapons other than firearms on school premises.
    (1) In this section:
    (a) "Dangerous weapon" has the meaning specified in s. 939.22 (10), except "dangerous weapon" does not include any firearm and does include any beebee or pellet-firing gun that expels a projectile through the force of air pressure or any starter pistol.
    (b) "School" means a public school, parochial or private school, or tribal school, as defined in s. 115.001 (15m), which provides an educational program for one or more grades between grades 1 and 12 and which is commonly known as an elementary school, middle school, junior high school, senior high school, or high school.
    (c) "School premises" means any school building, grounds, recreation area or athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated for school administration.
    (2) Any person who knowingly possesses or goes armed with a dangerous weapon on school premises is guilty of:
    (a) A Class A misdemeanor.
    (b) A Class I felony, if the violation is the person's 2nd or subsequent violation of this section within a 5-year period, as measured from the dates the violations occurred.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    A PSA regarding school premises(your car and a school parking lot) and BB Guns...
    I don't see anything [explicitly] in there that makes a BB qualify for something illegal on schools grounds.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    I don't see anything [explicitly] in there that makes a BB qualify for something illegal on schools grounds.
    Read it again...
    does include any beebee or pellet-firing gun that expels a projectile through the force of air pressure or any starter pistol.

  13. #13
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    Read it again...
    My bad. I was looking for the shorthand...
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    1) What kind of a birthday party are they throwing that they need security? ....
    A quinceanera is a 15th birthday party It's a HUGE deal in the hispanic culture. Possibly the closest anglos come is a debutante ball, but that is still far behind the notion of quinceanera. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quincea%C3%B1era

    Parents throw money into these affairs like it was so much water - thousands of dollars is not unusual although I'm guessing this one was not ultra-high fashion. Oh, heck! Just look here http://quinceanera.com/ .

    Considering that the guests of the quinceanera are also going to be as dressed up (but never more than the girl young lady at the center of attention), you are looking at a lot of money being spent. Then there are the gifts. O M G - the gifts! And the favors for the guests. And the presents for the grandparents and parents. Again, you can easily be looking at thousands of dollars more.

    And then consider the issue of gangs, and that most likely any gang not from her barrio was not invited but would, for a variety of reasons, want to crash the party.

    Armed security? You bet. And even if nothing happened - as at this party, the presence of armed security is making a social statement that this party is so special that it needs security protection.

    I'll just bet Mom & Dad were beyound fuming when the cops chased away the security team. (Wonder if they got their money back.)

    stay safe.
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