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Thread: Having a drink ?

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    Having a drink ?

    Can you legally have a drink and carry a gun at the same time, at a bar or with friends, at their house, or where ever it's normally legal ? It's just something I'm wondering.

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    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Having a drink ?

    Quote Originally Posted by casper View Post
    Can you legally have a drink and carry a gun at the same time, at a bar or with friends, at their house, or where ever it's normally legal ? It's just something I'm wondering.
    I wouldn't but that's just me. I believe the BAC for concealed carry is .02. Either way not worth the risk IMO.


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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezerharden View Post
    I wouldn't but that's just me. I believe the BAC for concealed carry is .02. Either way not worth the risk IMO.


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    http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7...0961--,00.html

    This is correct. Now the fact that you would even ask this question is alarming. It's kind of like asking if smoking & pumping gas is ok? You may get away with it, but if you ever have to use your pistol, look forward to spending a long time in jail should your BAC (it will be tested) come back any higher than .01999999999. You willing to risk your freedom for a 1/4 of a beer, or a sip of a mixed drink?

    One more thing Casper - Just in case you don't know. Until you get your CPL avoid bars, or any place that even has a liquor license. This means Kroger / Meijer / party stores etc.. etc...while carrying a pistol openly.
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 05-16-2013 at 12:53 AM. Reason: link / CPL vs NoCPL
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    Open carry BAC limit is .08.

    A good shoot is a good shoot is a good shoot. That is to say, if your life is in danger and you use your gun, BAC won't matter.

    If there is question as to WHETHER it's a good shoot, your BAC will come up in court. Assume that for most situations, there will be a question. The exception being castle doctrine laws, ie in your own home, and someone is breaking in. Since it can be assumed that someone breaking in while you're inside is a threat of serious bodily harm, you're GTG even if you're plastered.


    The Supreme Court of Michigan has already held that a prohibited person still has the right to common law self-defense, even if he has to break the law in order to use that right. That means a felon can take temporary possession of a gun, a normal person can brandish his gun, an a drunk person can possess the gun to defend himself.

    But keep in mind the SCoM said that possession must only last for as long as is necessary to defend oneself. So if you're plastered, and you defend yourself, lose the gun ASAP - that doesn't mean dispose of the evidence, but place it somewhere safe till LEO arrives and tell them where it is.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Having a drink ?

    Quote Originally Posted by zigziggityzoo View Post
    Open carry BAC limit is .08.
    .
    Arguably, there is no limit if the officer finds you "impaired". That's part of the same statute as .08. I don't have the reference off hand, but neither did you apparently.

    When you find .08 you'll find the language I referenced.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Arguably, there is no limit if the officer finds you "impaired". That's part of the same statute as .08. I don't have the reference off hand, but neither did you apparently.

    When you find .08 you'll find the language I referenced.
    You're correct. But as I said, a good shoot is a good shoot is a good shoot.

    I wouldn't make a habit of carrying while impaired (impairment is subjective, basically the officer would have to articulate how he visibly noticed your impairment - usually by a "roadside" type sobriety test), you could still lawfully defend yourself while impaired, and especially in the home, as I mentioned above.

    If you're one to be impaired (I interpret that as "buzzed") after one drink, then I wouldn't drink at all while carrying.

    Really, I wouldn't drink at all while carrying anyway. But if you aren't affected at all by one beer, It ain't gonna hurt anything, realistically (besides image, of course).
    Last edited by zigziggityzoo; 05-16-2013 at 10:04 AM.

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    Re: Having a drink ?

    Legality notwithstanding, handling potentially dangerous machinery, whether a car, a firearm, a lawnmower, or anything else, is usually not a good idea while under the influence of alcohol. As for its legality, I don't believe there's a national standard; it varies by state.

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    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zigziggityzoo View Post
    Open carry BAC limit is .08.

    A good shoot is a good shoot is a good shoot. That is to say, if your life is in danger and you use your gun, BAC won't matter.

    If there is question as to WHETHER it's a good shoot, your BAC will come up in court. Assume that for most situations, there will be a question. The exception being castle doctrine laws, ie in your own home, and someone is breaking in. Since it can be assumed that someone breaking in while you're inside is a threat of serious bodily harm, you're GTG even if you're plastered.


    The Supreme Court of Michigan has already held that a prohibited person still has the right to common law self-defense, even if he has to break the law in order to use that right. That means a felon can take temporary possession of a gun, a normal person can brandish his gun, an a drunk person can possess the gun to defend himself.

    But keep in mind the SCoM said that possession must only last for as long as is necessary to defend oneself. So if you're plastered, and you defend yourself, lose the gun ASAP - that doesn't mean dispose of the evidence, but place it somewhere safe till LEO arrives and tell them where it is.
    Correct on the .08 for Open Carry, however if you get into your car afterwards you are now CC unless you unload and case it.
    Want to keep informed of Open Carry events in your area? Go to www.miopencarry.org/update

    I carry a gun because a Police Officer is too heavy.

    For Drama free gun rights discussion, see http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/

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    Thanks guys, the question wasn't for me personally, as like you say, I wouldn't risk it. The answer is yes, but not a good idea. I was presented with the question, and I wasn't sure, so I asked it here.

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    Relevant laws
    MCL 750.237 (for OC)

    MCL 28.425k (for CC)

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigt8261 View Post
    Relevant laws
    MCL 750.237 (for OC)

    MCL 28.425k (for CC)
    I my opinion, I would say no. (Under the influence) is kind of a catch all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by casper View Post
    I my opinion, I would say no. (Under the influence) is kind of a catch all.

    The State would have the burden of proving you were being influenced by alcohol. Influence would indicate your judgement is affected by the alcohol in your system.

    And Again, in a self-defense situation, if it was a good shoot, it would be quite difficult for a prosecutor to argue you were influenced to make THE RIGHT DECISION by the alcohol in your system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tattedupboy View Post
    ...handling potentially dangerous machinery, whether a car, a firearm, a lawnmower, or anything else, is usually not a good idea while under the influence of alcohol....
    Handling and possession are two very different things.

    What about a 6" serrated steak knife? Should one possess this deadly weapon (in most states) while consuming a glass of red wine? Heck, actually this is usually being handled at the same time and nobody gives it a second thought.

    If you had been drinking at a RESPONSIBLE pace, i.e. not drunk, would you drive a car in an emergency? If yes, why not have a sidearm if you are going to drink RESPONSIBLY, and if allowed by law?

    The car is always there, in "possession" if you will. Just because you are going to drink doesn't mean you put the ignition module in your safe to disable it first.
    Last edited by MAC702; 05-16-2013 at 01:23 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    ... It's kind of like asking if smoking & pumping gas is ok....
    Only if one is waving a gun around with their finger in the trigger guard while drinking.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: Having a drink ?

    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Only if one is waving a gun around with their finger in the trigger guard while drinking.
    I assume you would agree as an instructor that drinking or using any substance that impairs ones judgement and response times, is a bad idea? Correct? ???
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    I assume you would agree as an instructor that drinking or using any substance that impairs ones judgement and response times, is a bad idea? Correct? ???
    Define impair.

    Should coffee be mandatory first thing in the morning? After all, it increases one's alertness and response times.

    Surely you recognize a difference between drinking responsibly and being drunk. Lots of states' laws do.

    Should one no longer have the option of self-defense at any degree of impairment or slower response time?

    Either way, how does an impaired judgment or slower response time equate the danger of a lit cigarette inches from gasoline vapors? I maintain this is a poor analogy, but I'm sure its hyperbole accomplished its sensational purpose.
    Last edited by MAC702; 05-16-2013 at 04:24 PM.
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    Re: Having a drink ?

    Quote Originally Posted by zigziggityzoo View Post
    The State would have the burden of proving you were being influenced by alcohol. Influence would indicate your judgement is affected by the alcohol in your system.

    And Again, in a self-defense situation, if it was a good shoot, it would be quite difficult for a prosecutor to argue you were influenced to make THE RIGHT DECISION by the alcohol in your system.
    Zig - it is extremely easy for prosecutor to paint a person carrying a gun as irresponsible and dangerous, no matter how good their reasons for shooting or even drawing their pistol. Don't take my word for it, ask Jim Makowski who has a former client sitting in Jackson State prison for simply drawing a pistol in self defense. Why? He drank "after" the incident, in his home before police showed up. Jury's today are borderline retarded often, sad but true.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    Zig - it is extremely easy for prosecutor to paint a person carrying a gun as irresponsible and dangerous, no matter how good their reasons for shooting or even drawing their pistol. Don't take my word for it, ask Jim Makowski who has a former client sitting in Jackson State prison for simply drawing a pistol in self defense. Why? He drank "after" the incident, in his home before police showed up. Jury's today are borderline retarded often, sad but true.
    Since the outcome is so significant, please cite this case so we can examine the details.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by tattedupboy View Post
    Legality notwithstanding, handling potentially dangerous machinery, whether a car, a firearm, a lawnmower, or anything else, is usually not a good idea while under the influence of alcohol. As for its legality, I don't believe there's a national standard; it varies by state.

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    but it's perfectly legal in indiana... just not in the michigan nanny state.
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    Re: Having a drink ?

    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Since the outcome is so significant, please cite this case so we can examine the details.
    Google Jim his number is listed. Again not going to argue with you. Do you tell your students it's a good idea to drink and carry? Never did answer, go figure?
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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: Having a drink ?

    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    but it's perfectly legal in indiana... just not in the michigan nanny state.
    Yep. MI gets a passing grade from the "Brady bunch". That should tell many just how much work needs to be done in favor of "rights" there. Love the people, but the leaders there are way out of touch with most of the population. IMHO.
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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    Google Jim his number is listed. Again not going to argue with you. Do you tell your students it's a good idea to drink and carry? Never did answer, go figure?
    I did Google him. The first page had his name a lot; not the case.

    You have a responsibility to cite a case if you use it; it's actually a rule on this forum. I even asked politely, sir. And I'll never roll my eyes at you.

    I don't tell my students what is a "good idea." That's not my job. I tell them the laws. I also answer questions about what these laws mean. I also point to cases of real life and relate them and ask questions that make them think about the situation in ways that perhaps they haven't before. What is a "good idea" is for them to decide for themselves with their circumstances. Does this count as a sufficient "answer" to warrant a response to the questions I posed as a response that you did not yet consider to be an "answer?"

    I realize it is illegal to carry and consume alcohol in a bar in AZ or even to OC at all in a bar in AZ. If you ever want to see it done, come on over to NV. I'll buy the beer, once I get to know you as a guy that can drink responsibly. There is a fantastic microbrewery restaurant in downtown Boulder City.
    Last edited by MAC702; 05-16-2013 at 06:14 PM.
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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: Having a drink ?

    I'll pass. I don't drink. Thanks anyways.
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    Alcohol in any amount significant enough to intoxicate can impair your sympathetic nervous system to the point of it not properly activating in a life or death fight. This reason alone is a very good reason to not drink and carry. You may well be able to carefully drive, operate machinery, and do anything else that can be done with added caution including carrying a firearm, but if you can't properly process the adrenalin of a fighting situation and operate at the 200 miles an hour type of mode that it enables, you damn well shouldn't be carrying a lethal weapon because you won't be able to deploy it properly.

    Laws aside, if you don't value your own safety and state recognized freedom, morally it's a bad idea because you could very well screw up and hurt someone else. In essence, my suggestion is don't do it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    Zig - it is extremely easy for prosecutor to paint a person carrying a gun as irresponsible and dangerous, no matter how good their reasons for shooting or even drawing their pistol. Don't take my word for it, ask Jim Makowski who has a former client sitting in Jackson State prison for simply drawing a pistol in self defense. Why? He drank "after" the incident, in his home before police showed up. Jury's today are borderline retarded often, sad but true.
    I know of the case, read it through.

    He did more than just drink afterward.

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