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Thread: This could happen here in VA

  1. #1
    Regular Member JohnM15A's Avatar
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    This could happen here in VA


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    Regular Member Esanders2008's Avatar
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    Man I sure could use 3.6 million bucks..
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    Here is the CADS (Cop Attitude Disorder Syndrome) on full display. It extends to the very top in this department. Despite knowing there was no legal requirement to comply, despite knowing his officers had seized an American off the streets of his town, despite knowing his officers behaved in true KGB fashion (papers please, comrade), rather than apologize or decry the officers' gross violations as both unpatriotic and unAmerican:

    Riverside police Chief Mark Reiss argued, “Had he been truthful with the police and simply provided his identification so that they could have quickly ran it, that encounter would have been over very quickly, within a minute or two.”

    Technically that is true, but the only problem is that Call was under no legal obligation to pacify the police officers. Call’s refusal to identify himself was a Constitutional right.


    Notice that even the idiot who wrote the article lumps your rights under the heading of "technicalities."
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Yup. All it takes is for any one of us, out and about in any one of the municipalities that have "stop and ID" laws on the books, to then be in pretty much the exact same situation. So I guess if you'd like, pick any one of those municipalities and see what happens.
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    Regular Member JohnM15A's Avatar
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    How about try this:

    LEO: "What is your name"

    OCPatriot: "I would be glad to tell you my name if you tell me what probable cause you have to require it"

    Is the LEO allowed to give a probable cause?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnM15A View Post
    How about try this:

    LEO: "What is your name"

    OCPatriot: "I would be glad to tell you my name if you tell me what probable cause you have to require it"

    Is the LEO allowed to give a probable cause?
    Well, municipal code and their interpretation of that don't necessarily require "probable cause"....but more importantly, User's advice as I understand it is to always go with asking if you are free to go rather than to get into a discussion/debate with LEO.
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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    Well, municipal code and their interpretation of that don't necessarily require "probable cause"....but more importantly, User's advice as I understand it is to always go with asking if you are free to go rather than to get into a discussion/debate with LEO.
    Yeah, remember LEOs are well-versed in the art of verbal warfare and you start saying that (as opposed to a simple 'why am I being detained/am I free to go') and they come back with 'you're giving me attitude/what are you a street lawyer?' ploy. Next thing you know they've got resisting and you're cuffed and stuffed.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Are there any stop and ID locales in Virginia? If so, what about preemption? Do you have to present an ID in those places? What happens if you are out for a walk and are not carrying any sort of ID?
    Last edited by SouthernBoy; 05-17-2013 at 05:21 AM.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    This could happen here in VA
    Seems we have read about, raised funds for the defense against, showed up as both moral support and moral outrage on the trial date, and otherwise gone through this a few times.

    Having done that, a lot of us have decided that user's advice (Am I free to go? if yes > go, if no >say you want to talk with your lawyer and KYBMS until they show up) is the way to approach these encounters. That, and having a digital voice recorder running any time you are out of your house (even if it's just to get the mail).

    Virginia case law is fairly well established that "obstruction" pretty much requires an overt act as opposed to just not cooperating. (Would it be going too far to offer to hold the cop's flashligt while he looks for clues of the crime he's trying to pin on you because you are OCing? That ought to play out well at trial.)

    stay safe.
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  10. #10
    Regular Member Esanders2008's Avatar
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    http://library.municode.com/HTML/101...23-7.1PRIDPOOF

    Sec. 23-7.1. - Providing identification to police officer.

    It shall be unlawful and a Class 1 misdemeanor for any person at a public place or place open to the public to refuse to identify himself by name and address at the request of a uniformed police officer or of a properly identified police officer not in uniform, or to provide false information in response to such a request, if the surrounding circumstances are such as to indicate to a reasonable man that the public safety requires such identification.

    This is VA Beach. What does the bolded portion actually mean?
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  11. #11
    Regular Member JohnM15A's Avatar
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    Amazing how bad laws can be written... Apparently my imagination is not up to the task to figure out what this means. How about this, the police need to arrest a criminal named Eric because he is a killer and is known to be armed. And Eric is in a room filled with identical people. So the police would need to know which one is Eric. So he starts asking for names. One man just says "can I leave now?" Then the cuffs go on...

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnM15A View Post
    How about try this:

    LEO: "What is your name"

    OCPatriot: "I would be glad to tell you my name if you tell me what probable cause you have to require it"

    Is the LEO allowed to give a probable cause?
    If he's got probable cause, you're going to be arrested, ID or no ID.

    Reasonable suspicion, a lower standard that probable cause, is the question.

    West Virginia seems to have some case law or a statute that implies the cop has to tell his reasonable suspicion before the detainee can be charged for refusing to identify.

    In VA, I've come across neither a prohibition, nor a requirement, that a cop disclose all or any of his reasonable suspicion to the detainee during the detention.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esanders2008 View Post
    http://library.municode.com/HTML/101...23-7.1PRIDPOOF

    Sec. 23-7.1. - Providing identification to police officer.

    It shall be unlawful and a Class 1 misdemeanor for any person at a public place or place open to the public to refuse to identify himself by name and address at the request of a uniformed police officer or of a properly identified police officer not in uniform, or to provide false information in response to such a request, if the surrounding circumstances are such as to indicate to a reasonable man that the public safety requires such identification.

    This is VA Beach. What does the bolded portion actually mean?
    Doesn't much matter in court. Its trumped by 4A case law on the subject.

    On the street, it means whatever the cop wants it to mean. That is to say, refuse to identify when demanded and you'll probably get charged. Best bet is to comply while refusing consent. "Yes, officer. Here is my ID, provided only because you demanded it. I do not consent." Or some such.
    Last edited by Citizen; 05-17-2013 at 12:26 AM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Esanders2008's Avatar
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    This could happen here in VA

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Doesn't much matter in court. Its trumped by 4A case law on the subject.

    On the street, it means whatever the cop wants it to mean. That is to say, refuse to identify when demanded and you'll probably get charged.
    But if I got charged, I could fight it in court using 4A as my justification for refusing to answer the question?
    ...To make my bullets go faster!

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esanders2008 View Post
    But if I got charged, I could fight it in court using 4A as my justification for refusing to answer the question?
    That's not what quite what I said.

    You could try to fight it. All it would take, though, is for a judge to decide that clause is the equivalent of the reasonable suspicion requirement in Brown vs Texas or Hiibel vs 6th Judicial Court, and you'd be toast. My point was that the existing 4A case law about reasonable suspicion is going to hold more weight.

    If the judge agreed that local code was too vague or that what you were doing didn't rise to reasonable suspicion, then you might get off. Or, if the cop didn't have reasonable suspicion from the 911 call or whatever.
    Last edited by Citizen; 05-17-2013 at 12:45 AM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Esanders2008's Avatar
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    This could happen here in VA

    Hmmm. Interesting food for thought
    ...To make my bullets go faster!

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