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Thread: Problem with Open Carry: "... the gun went off."

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Problem with Open Carry: "... the gun went off."

    This happened in Winchester:

    Weapon Accidentally Goes off on City School Bus

    Oh, did I mention it was a cop's gun that "went off" ?

    Winchester Police say a student reached for an officer's gun on a special needs school bus and the gun went off. No one was hurt, but what happened has the Winchester Police Department making some changes.

    "He was basically trying to unbuckle the bus driver at the time and also trying to take her radio out of her hand," said Lauren Cummings with Winchester Police Department.

    That's where it all started. Winchester Public School officials called the police department around 8:30 Monday morning. They needed help with one of the middle school students on a special needs bus.

    "Our officer is specifically trained in crisis intervention team training and is able to deescalate situations like this," said Cummings.

    The officer was able to calm down the student. Then, police say, while the officer was sitting next to him, the student reached over and got his finger on the trigger.

    "It was discharged on the school bus," said Cummings. "The shot fired through the seat and hit the floor."
    Good thing no one was killed, huh? But wait, there's more:
    Four students were on the bus along with the officer, the bus driver and a school aid. No one was hurt. But what happened here has the Winchester Police Department looking at the holster that clips their officers' guns to their side. The Department bought new holsters back in November. Because of what happened, they've already taken away all the new holsters from officers.

    "We'll be contacting the manufacturer of this holster to find out if they've had any similar incidents," said Cummings. "We'll be taking a look at did the holster actually malfunction in some way. We'll be looking more closely at that and trying to determine how we can prevent this incident from occurring again."

    A lot of people have been asking if there was a safety on the gun. Police say that the guns they use don't have a traditional safety. They have something called a "safe action system." The safety is part of the trigger. As the trigger is pulled internal safeties are disengaged and then reengage when the trigger is released.

    At this time no charges are expected. The officer whose gun went off is on administrative leave ...
    The identity of the officer is not revealed. What if it had been a civilian[sic]?

    They also do not identify the handgun. Of course, we can figure it out, can't we?

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    Any bets

    It was a Glock with their patented "3 trigger safety system"?

    Sure sounds like the "safety system" has a bit of a problem.

    And people wonder why I hate Glocks??????????????

  3. #3
    Regular Member XD40sc's Avatar
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    What was the cop using for a holster, a fanny pack? A holster is more than just a place to carry a gun.

    But when the ONLY safety on a gun is ON the trigger, and people are surprised when they 'accidentally' go off

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    Yeah, what he said...,

    Quote Originally Posted by va_tazdad View Post
    It was a Glock with their patented "3 trigger safety system"?

    Sure sounds like the "safety system" has a bit of a problem.

    And people wonder why I hate Glocks??????????????
    +1000, only it isn't hate, I'd actually use one if it were the only thing around, I was desperately in need and I didn't have to pay for it. That's "MY" Glock three phase safety system.

    sidestreet

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    we are not equal, we will never be equal, but we must be relentless.

  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    It was some version of a Glock in some sort of Serpa-looking holster.

    As for "unbuckling the driver and/or trying to take the radio out of her hand" - it's hard to tell if the student was doing that or if the cop was. If it was the student, I need to ask what the aide was doing all the time the student was out of their seat and messing with the driver, as well as whether or not the driver stopped the bus as soon as the student got up out of their seat/began messing with the seatbelt. If it was the cop all I have is "WTF?"

    Guns do not "go off" - a fact we are well aware of even if mainstream media and the Winchester Pollce are not. If it was a Glock in a Serpa holster, even if the Glock was not properly seated to engage the trigger guard retaining latch, pulling the gun up would not engage the trigger because of the design of the holster. Dollars to donuts the cop remembered their weapon retention training enough to put their hand on the grip, but more dollars to even more donuts their trigger finger went into the trigger guard as the gun began to rise out of the holster. Even with an offset for a jacket slot (which the video did not show, there should be a muzzle blast down the cop's leg (even if it's just a small area of the upper thigh when in a seated position) if the gun went off in the holster. Inquiring minds want to see the pants he was wearing.

    For those who have gardens, I highly recommend you work this story into the soil between the rows of plants - it has at least the BS equivalent of a full bottle of Miracle-Grow!

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    I will

    Quote Originally Posted by sidestreet View Post
    +1000, only it isn't hate, I'd actually use one if it were the only thing around, I was desperately in need and I didn't have to pay for it. That's "MY" Glock three phase safety system.

    sidestreet

    Jeremiah 29 vs. 11-13

    we are not equal, we will never be equal, but we must be relentless.
    concede to your "three phase safety system", in the circumstances you laid, out oh wise one. Otherwise, I prefer real steel guns, not plastic Glock garbage.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    So if the "gun can go off" while still in the holster, is the LEO carry of a firearm in a holster brandishing?

    My Sig 229 DAO does not have any external safety. If there is one in the pipe and the trigger is pulled, lead comes spewing out of the barrel. This is normal. What is not normal for me is officer friendly endangering all those children by not being able to maintain the security of his weapon. Don't blamethe negligent discharge on the special needs kid (officer friendly knew the kid had problems) and do not blame it on the holster, because the holster does not have a brain. Blaim it on the person who was supposed to maintain positive control of his weapon.
    Last edited by Thundar; 05-17-2013 at 05:12 PM.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Now Thundar, let's not jump all over Ossifer Friendly just because he got some special-needs kid got his gun away from him.

    (Which I highly doubt is what happened. My money is still on Ossifer Friendly grabbing the handle while sticking his booger-hook inside the trigger guard. Either bad performance or he was in fact trying to draw down on the special needs kid and just twitched his finger too early - you decide.)

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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  9. #9
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    The classic claim in any ND, it was the gun or the holsters fault, it couldn't possibly be the finger on the trigger. NO NO the holster again pulled the trigger, if it wasn't so pathetic it would be funny. Either the officer or the student pulled the trigger, the officer should have had control of the firearm.

    Note in the video all of the Winchester holsters have covered trigger guards making it impossible to get a finger on the trigger without removing the gun at least enough to clear the guard. It sounds like the student got the gun out of the holster, and who pulled the trigger is a matter of guessing. I know that in the days when most guns carried were revolvers that ND happened many times with covered trigger guards. Numpties would holster with a finger on the trigger, and when the finger encountered the holster, it caused a ND. Most of our revolver holsters eventually were replaced with open trigger guards actually decreasing the NDs.

    The problem always comes back to a finger on the trigger.

    Skid keep in mind that it is not only LEOs that come up with these lame excuses, remember a few weeks back when a member claimed that a leather holster actually pulled the trigger on a Glock ALL by itself.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 05-17-2013 at 05:39 PM.
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    Oh look, no worries: Officer back on duty

    Officer [unnamed] reports for duty -- why? Well, because:
    "I think it's safe to say this type of incident was unforeseen."

    "It was determined that the officer had done everything right."
    -- Lauren Cummings, police community relations specialist.

    But wait, what happened? Well, let the SPECIALIST describe the events:
    The officer boarded the bus, calmed down the disruptive student and was accompanying him to his destination at Daniel Morgan Middle School when the gun went off. Police say the student and officer were seated next to each other when the student reached into the officer's holster and squeezed the trigger with his finger. The gun discharged through a seat and into the floor, according to police.

    Cummings said police are continuing to review the design and operation of the holster, a new model given to all officers about six months ago.

    The holster was withdrawn after Monday's incident and replaced with the department's older holsters while the review continues.

    Department officials have contacted the holster's manufacturer as part of their review. They have refused to disclose the manufacturer's name or the model of the gun discharged, citing concerns about officer safety.
    Oooooh, "Officer Safety" vs. FOIA. Pay-per-view. Pass the popcorn.

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    Dave Briggman comments

    Here is a comment from a real Specialist:
    Dave Briggman · Top Commenter

    I believe this was the officer's fault...and I'm a former police officer. He failed to secure his own weapon from the very person he was apparently sent to calm down.

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    the student and officer were seated next to each other when the student reached into the officer's holster and squeezed the trigger with his finger.
    And all my life I had been under the impression that "special needs" kids were different from "disabled/deformed" kids. Apparently this one has tentacles that can squish1 into the space between the holster body and the frame of the handgun.

    stay safe.

    1 - a perfectly valid scientific term used to describe the ability to deform so as to be able to fit in a space ordinarily too small for the normally-occuring physical state. e.g.: Octopi are able to squish their bodies so as to enter bottles with a mouth diameter less than the diameter of the octopus's body.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by va_tazdad View Post
    It was a Glock with their patented "3 trigger safety system"?

    Sure sounds like the "safety system" has a bit of a problem.

    And people wonder why I hate Glocks??????????????
    The internal safeties work beautifully. The external trigger safety is thought by many, including me, to be a joke. Personally, I do not want any external settable safeties on my carry guns.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    And all my life I had been under the impression that "special needs" kids were different from "disabled/deformed" kids. Apparently this one has tentacles that can squish1 into the space between the holster body and the frame of the handgun.

    stay safe.

    1 - a perfectly valid scientific term used to describe the ability to deform so as to be able to fit in a space ordinarily too small for the normally-occuring physical state. e.g.: Octopi are able to squish their bodies so as to enter bottles with a mouth diameter less than the diameter of the octopus's body.
    Oh, jeez! No, no, no.

    You're using the transitive form of the verb intransitively. The intransitive version of squish is to make a squishing sound.

    You just can't take certain people out in public.

    Last edited by Citizen; 05-17-2013 at 08:00 PM.
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    Re: Problem with Open Carry: "... the gun went off."

    What's funny is that the department isn't considering taking action against the officer, but changing duty holsters instead. Any time someone has a negligent discharge with a Serpa holster, the blame always seems to go to the holster design instead of poor technique, as it should. Thank God we are hearing about no dead children though.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Keep in mind that the Duty Serpa holster is a level 3 holster. Not only does the trigger guard latch have to be released, there also is a thumb release.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Keep in mind that the Duty Serpa holster is a level 3 holster. Not only does the trigger guard latch have to be released, there also is a thumb release.
    Except that the linked video does not seem to show a Duty Serpa.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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  18. #18
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Except that the linked video does not seem to show a Duty Serpa.

    stay safe.
    I only saw one serpa in use in the video, and it was not on a uniform officer. The rest appeared to have kydex type holsters in uniform. If it was a serpa, and a duty serpa, I would guess it would be the level 3. We really do not know if it was even a blackhawk holster. I still am not buying the kid pulled the trigger with the gun in the holster line. Unless it was a open trigger holster, and that just does not sound right considering the current trends.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    This thread is misleading!!!!

    LEO/Security/Uniformed Mil aren't considered OC'ers.
    Secondly, an OC'er in VA wouldn't find thenselves in the same situation as they are prohibted by law/s from OC'ing on school property.

    I can't believe we have folks blaming the gun/holster in this thread. That's like blaming forks for folks being obese.
    IMHO, plan and simple anyway you slice it, it's the officers' fault, as he failed to secure his firearm.
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  20. #20
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    I don't believe anybody here is blaming the holster, the police dept is. If you look at the posts here I don't know how you could come to that conclusion.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 05-18-2013 at 01:01 AM.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
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    Regular Member asfkd's Avatar
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    That's what we in the I.T. world call a USER ERROR.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    well, looking at the holsters in the video... it may be probable. what specific model of gun does Winchster police issue? Glock 22, 21, 19?

    never seen a cop do it, but some people will use "universal size holsters" or a holster too big for the gun... like a glock 17 in a 21 holster. if that's the case then a kid could probably get a finger in there.
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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    This thread is misleading!!!!

    LEO/Security/Uniformed Mil aren't considered OC'ers.
    Secondly, an OC'er in VA wouldn't find thenselves in the same situation as they are prohibted by law/s from OC'ing on school property.

    I can't believe we have folks blaming the gun/holster in this thread. That's like blaming forks for folks being obese.
    IMHO, plan and simple anyway you slice it, it's the officers' fault, as he failed to secure his firearm.
    Amen to all of this.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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  24. #24
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    My guess here, and its strictly a WAG without any of the details, is that the officer had the child sit in the seat, closest to the window. The officer then sat next to him so that they kid couldn't get up - thus exposing his weapon side to the kid.

    Officers should sit with "prisoners" (so to speak) on the opposite site of his weapon. He probably just didn't consider the possibility that the kid would do this.

    Again, just a guess.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by asfkd View Post
    That's what we in the I.T. world call a USER ERROR.
    That's what we in I.T. would call Foobar.

    The Navy calls it what it is: FUBAR.

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