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Thread: Can Someone Please Explain Why Obamacare is Bad?

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    Regular Member Esanders2008's Avatar
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    Can Someone Please Explain Why Obamacare is Bad?

    I don't claim to know anything, but it is my understanding that certain portions of this reform are good. For example, there is a prohibition next year on denying coverage based on pre existing conditions. That is the very reason I can't get affordable insurance right now. I'd like someone to explain the reform in easy to understand terms, and explain the pros and cons. Thanks a bunch guys and gals.
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    There is nothing wrong with Obamacare...


    ...if you believe that the role of government is to take care of you, that you are not responsible for yourself, that you have a "right to health care," that the government knows better than you what is best for you, that the government has the right to take from me and others to make sure that you get what you want.

    However, if you believe in Liberty, self-reliance, and minimal government, everything is wrong with Obamacare.

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    Regular Member Esanders2008's Avatar
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    Can Someone Please Explain Why Obamacare is Bad?

    I understand your point, but at the same time, it's hard to be self-reliant when, because of medical problems you no control over, your insurance premium exceeds your gross income. I'm all for liberty, but I also believe in taking care of those who, through no fault of their own, can't take care of themselves.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esanders2008 View Post
    I understand your point, but at the same time, it's hard to be self-reliant when, because of medical problems you no control over, your insurance premium exceeds your gross income. I'm all for liberty, but I also believe in taking care of those who, through no fault of their own, can't take care of themselves.
    Issue with that started when we managed to make helping others who are sick a multi billion dollar business.

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    Regular Member Esanders2008's Avatar
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    Can Someone Please Explain Why Obamacare is Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by ADobbs1989 View Post
    Issue with that started when we managed to make helping others who are sick a multi billion dollar business.
    +1
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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    It has the name Obama in it..... That's all I need to know to be against it.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Esanders2008 View Post
    I understand your point, but at the same time, it's hard to be self-reliant when, because of medical problems you no control over, your insurance premium exceeds your gross income. I'm all for liberty, but I also believe in taking care of those who, through no fault of their own, can't take care of themselves.
    So the fact that you don't have control over a medical condition of YOURS warrants ME being robbed by the government to pay your bills?

    Not in my definition of Liberty.

    You want this kind of socialism? Go live in the People's Republics of Massachusetts or Illinois or California where almost everyone else wants a nanny state and leave me the hell alone.

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    Regular Member Esanders2008's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    So the fact that you don't have control over a medical condition of YOURS warrants ME being robbed by the government to pay your bills?

    Not in my definition of Liberty.

    You want this kind of socialism? Go live in the People's Republics of Massachusetts or Illinois or California where almost everyone else wants a nanny state and leave me the hell alone.
    How does the government rob YOU to pay for my medical bills... Like I said: I don't even know what Obamacare totally means. I do know that I think that prohibiting insurance companies to charge me an arm and a leg because I have a preexisting condition is covered, but see above.
    ...To make my bullets go faster!

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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esanders2008 View Post
    I understand your point, but at the same time, it's hard to be self-reliant when, because of medical problems you no control over, your insurance premium exceeds your gross income. I'm all for liberty, but I also believe in taking care of those who, through no fault of their own, can't take care of themselves.
    That doesn't justify you to coerce me into assisting you financially. Sorry bro. "It helps me out financially" is not the same as "it's good"

    In my opinion the bottom line is that, regardless of perceived benefits which may or more likely aren't reality, obamacare is immoral, and that reason alone is enough to oppose it. It is immoral because it calls for coercion by means of taxation. That's as simple as it gets, me thinks.

    Charity is the responsibility of the Church, btw. Unfortunately it is true that in many cases the Church is falling short of fulfilling this responsibility.
    Last edited by stealthyeliminator; 05-18-2013 at 07:35 PM.

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    Obamacare will be controlled and policed by the IRS.

    Count me out of the program.

    CCJ

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    Regular Member Esanders2008's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    That doesn't justify you to coerce me into assisting you financially. Sorry bro. "It helps me out financially" is not the same as "it's good"

    In my opinion the bottom line is that, regardless of perceived benefits which may or more likely aren't reality, obamacare is immoral, and that reason alone is enough to oppose it. It is immoral because it calls for coercion by means of taxation. That's as simple as it gets, me thinks.
    You seem to know a bit about it. Would you mind explaining exactly how it works?
    ...To make my bullets go faster!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Esanders2008 View Post
    How does the government rob YOU to pay for my medical bills... Like I said: I don't even know what Obamacare totally means. I do know that I think that prohibiting insurance companies to charge me an arm and a leg because I have a preexisting condition is covered, but see above.
    I will be forced to buy medical care that I may not need or want at prices I would never voluntarily pay. If I don't, I will be taxed instead. That is robbery. Just so you can have your Obama-given right to "medical care." NO. Piss off.

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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esanders2008 View Post
    You seem to know a bit about it. Would you mind explaining exactly how it works?
    I know very little about it, actually.

    Yet, still possibly more than the average politician when they passed it. Heyo!

    Seriously though, I don't know a lot about it. I haven't read it (if the people voting on it don't have time, I sure don't either). I'm not going to pretend I know the ins and outs of it. I do know enough to know that the statements I made are correct. I do know that passing of the legislation enables additional coercion and taxation. In my opinion morality should be of higher priority than practicality, so if we know that obamacare fails to be compatible with fundamental ethics then that should justify our opposition regardless of any pragmatic arguments.

    Never compromise your principes, no matter the reward, no matter the consequence, no matter the pain

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    Parts of Obamacare is good, such as the part you are referring. Insurance companies should not be able to disqualify you based on pre-existing conditions. The whole premise of that is absurd. They want us to pay for insurance based on the fact the odds are they will never have to pay out huge sums of money on our behalf, or that the money they make as a whole will offset the amount paid out.

    I like that part of Obamacare....I do.

    The problem I have is this:

    Lets say I'm labeled as a part-time employee but work 40 hours a week. I don't mind not being labeled as full-time as the only tradeoff is I don't get the benefits full-time employees get, such as insurance. Under Obamacare, my employer is now forced to give me full time benefits because I work over 30 hours a week. Obama decided this was a genius way to help people get insurance. Problem is, these companies are not comprised of idiots. Atleast not complete idiots. Instead of giving me insurance since I work over 30 hours a week, they will hire someone else and give both of us 20 hours a week. Now they don't have to provide insurance!

    See, but I'm still held liable under Obamacare to get insurance. Now I'm making half as much as I was and can't afford insurance. But, since Obamacare is looking out for me, I'll be "taxed" $695 at the end of the year, per-person.

    THAT'S my issue with Obamacare. His genius way to get more people insurance is in fact going to hurt many more people than it will help. My company has started already, even McDonalds has started hiring twice as many part-time employee's so they can cut hours per-person. All of this to get out of offering insurance to more people, who now because of working less hours will most likely not be able to pay their bills, much less pay for insurance.

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    Regular Member Esanders2008's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by influencer View Post
    Parts of Obamacare is good, such as the part you are referring. Insurance companies should not be able to disqualify you based on pre-existing conditions. The whole premise of that is absurd. They want us to pay for insurance based on the fact the odds are they will never have to pay out huge sums of money on our behalf, or that the money they make as a whole will offset the amount paid out.

    I like that part of Obamacare....I do.

    The problem I have is this:

    Lets say I'm labeled as a part-time employee but work 40 hours a week. I don't mind not being labeled as full-time as the only tradeoff is I don't get the benefits full-time employees get, such as insurance. Under Obamacare, my employer is now forced to give me full time benefits because I work over 30 hours a week. Obama decided this was a genius way to help people get insurance. Problem is, these companies are not comprised of idiots. Atleast not complete idiots. Instead of giving me insurance since I work over 30 hours a week, they will hire someone else and give both of us 20 hours a week. Now they don't have to provide insurance!

    See, but I'm still held liable under Obamacare to get insurance. Now I'm making half as much as I was and can't afford insurance. But, since Obamacare is looking out for me, I'll be "taxed" $695 at the end of the year, per-person.

    THAT'S my issue with Obamacare. His genius way to get more people insurance is in fact going to hurt many more people than it will help. My company has started already, even McDonalds has started hiring twice as many part-time employee's so they can cut hours per-person. All of this to get out of offering insurance to more people, who now because of working less hours will most likely not be able to pay their bills, much less pay for insurance.

    Thank you for the example, and RESPECTFUL presentation. I see where that could be problematic. But doesn't Obamacare offer subsidized insurance through the exchanges?


    I found this calculator online as part of my research.

    http://kff.org/interactive/subsidy-calculator/
    ...To make my bullets go faster!

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    Can Someone Please Explain Why Obamacare is Bad?

    Nothing in obamacare is good. It takes away Liberty.

    They FORCE participation. Allow me to opt out without having to pay the tax and then I don't care what happens to the dupes who participate. Leave me alone.


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    Regular Member Mantioch's Avatar
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    I happen to be in the health insurance industry, specifically clinical management. You are right, there are some good things to it. Electronic medical records and the new meaningful use clause are good because it means providers can stop giving redundant tests and gouging people that way. Many of the "reforms" were already adopted by the larger insurance companies before Obamacare.

    However, Obamacare does nothing to address the real issue: outrageous provider prices and fees and the waste that goes on. In fact, the new taxes on durable medical equipment makes that even worse. Did you know providers have an entire staff of people who's job it is to manipulate the codes on your claim so they charge the most money possible.

    It isn't the fault of the evil insurance companies and Obamacare is an excuse to tax and exert control. Nothing more.
    Last edited by Mantioch; 05-18-2013 at 09:40 PM.
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    This is yet another example of Goverment forcing citizens to enter into a contract. A contract that 95% of the citizens will have no clue about the legal ramifications of the contract.

    At some point they will tell the less informed that it is a privilege to have health care via the obamacare contract and you will be subject to all the rules and regulations and the fees and taxes of the contract.Also you then surrender all your rights for the so called privilege. I can go on and on.

    We will all need attorney's to sort out the legalese of Obamacare same way we need a tax adviser to sort out the IRC. I can go on and on. One not be a Harvard lawyer to see that we are losing our right to CHOSE.

    They count on our fear and our ignorance to steal our rights.

    CCJ

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    Can Someone Please Explain Why Obamacare is Bad?

    Those who think that there are "some good features" to obamacare must think that forcing someone into a contract that is "good for them" is OK. *I* decide what is "good for me." No one else does, let alone some nanny, bloombergian bureaucrat who thinks he knows better than me.

    It is MY job to make sure that unnecessary tests are not done, that I am not overcharged, etc, not the governments.

    Free markets ran the medical profession just fine until government and employers got involved. Folks paid for routine visits out of their pockets and bought insurance only to protect them from catastrophic illness. We should return to that model--or at least allow that as an option.

    The problems we have now only exist because of insurance company, employer, and governmental interference with an erstwhile free market.


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    Regular Member Mantioch's Avatar
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    I think you misunderstood. I think Obamacare sucks. Tucked in the Obamacare legislation was the electronic medical records mandate. It is a good thing and leads to lower costs, better sharing of information between doctors, and better clinical outcomes. Better clinical outcomes lower costs and save lives. That particular mandate has been brought up long before Obama and was defeated by Big Physician lobbyers.

    Everything else, and especially to individual mandate, sucks. Now, there is legal precedent to make anyone buy anything that the government sees fit to force upon you.
    "I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend." J.R.R. Tolkien, The Two Towers

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Those who think that there are "some good features" to obamacare must think that forcing someone into a contract that is "good for them" is OK. *I* decide what is "good for me." No one else does, let alone some nanny, bloombergian bureaucrat who thinks he knows better than me.

    It is MY job to make sure that unnecessary tests are not done, that I am not overcharged, etc, not the governments.

    Free markets ran the medical profession just fine until government and employers got involved. Folks paid for routine visits out of their pockets and bought insurance only to protect them from catastrophic illness. We should return to that model--or at least allow that as an option.

    The problems we have now only exist because of insurance company, employer, and governmental interference with an erstwhile free market.


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    Hasty generalization and false accusation alert. No one here has argued that forcing someone into a contract is a good thing. In fact in general everyone who has posted "there are some good things" has specifically stated that it WAS NOT a good thing to force people into a contract. Moving on.

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    Our life and our entire family's life will now become an open book for the whole world to see.

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    Regular Member Esanders2008's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    our life and our entire family's life will now become an open book for the whole world to see.
    hipaa?
    ...To make my bullets go faster!

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    Regular Member Esanders2008's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Those who think that there are "some good features" to obamacare must think that forcing someone into a contract that is "good for them" is OK. *I* decide what is "good for me." No one else does, let alone some nanny, bloombergian bureaucrat who thinks he knows better than me.

    It is MY job to make sure that unnecessary tests are not done, that I am not overcharged, etc, not the governments.

    Free markets ran the medical profession just fine until government and employers got involved. Folks paid for routine visits out of their pockets and bought insurance only to protect them from catastrophic illness. We should return to that model--or at least allow that as an option.

    The problems we have now only exist because of insurance company, employer, and governmental interference with an erstwhile free market.


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    I had the misfortune of being sideswiped last year. My medical bills, since I was uninsured, reached into the thousands. Who has the money to pay for that out of pocket?
    ...To make my bullets go faster!

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    Can Someone Please Explain Why Obamacare is Bad?

    fairtax.org

    End the IRS and remove the power of the feds.

    COMMENTS EDITED BY ADMINISTRATOR TO REMOVE INAPPROPRIATE IMAGERY

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    Last edited by John Pierce; 05-20-2013 at 11:59 AM.

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