The UnMarch on DC

eye95 · May 18, 2013

It has been proposed that an alternative to Kokesh's "armed revolt" be staged in protest of DC's gun ban.

This thread is to spitball ideas and form a grassroots movement to organize such a rally. I only have two requirements:

1. No one is in charge. This must be grassroots.
2. We must collectively decide not to deliberately break any laws--not even unconstitutional ones.

Feel free to ignore my requirements. That is the nature of grassroots. I just won't participate if laws are to be broken or a Kokesh-wannabe takes over.

Start spitballin"!

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HP995 · May 18, 2013

I believe a fairly large peaceful march, with no one arrested or hurt, and everything nice, would be very helpful to force the public and media to see typical gun owner activities as they are.

Since DC has commie pinko gun laws, and since "We love guns" T shirts aren't going to make front page news by themselves, how about the marchers being armed with toy guns placed in the best possible holsters, and real gear and accessories if possible?

(Whatever toy guns are legal, the best looking ones legally possible, but a squirt gun or Hello Kitty bubble street sweeper is better than nothing.)

That way it could look like an armed march, and indeed it would be, just not very powerful rounds.

I'm unable to march (can't walk well), don't have a power scooter or what have you, far from DC, and low on cash, so it's not my ideal event to participate on foot, but I like the idea!

I'm not an advocate of avoiding lawbreaking at any cost whatsoever, to the very end, regardless of the situation; this USA would never have existed if people back then had adopted that viewpoint. Runaway slaves would never have been harbored either. Right and wrong must triumph regulations when it comes down to the crunch.

However, in this case a peaceful and fully legal march going without a hitch is just what we need, and with legal and political victories being made, it would be much better to lead off with this rather the uncertainties of the Kokesh event.

joanie · May 19, 2013

1. No one is in charge. This must be grassroots.

I'm good with that.

2. We must collectively decide not to deliberately break any laws

I'd do what I see as being the right thing to do, but I support your right to follow all the laws. Seems to me rule #1 goes against rule #2. If we follow all the laws, then the lawmakers are in charge and it don't seem so much like grassroots, speaking from a weed's point of view. Thats kinda why I was put off by the organizer of the Youngstown walk's atempt to involve their police in the planning. Also many of the OC encounters I see on YT where the OCer seeks the cop's approval by explaining themself. Just feeding the power trip.

Feel free to ignore my requirements. That is the nature of grassroots. I just won't participate if laws are to be broken or a Kokesh-wannabe takes over.

I don't go out of my way to break laws, by the same token, I don't make it a point to learn and know all the laws, I might go out of my way alittle to keep within the laws, depending on how much sense the law makes to me, but only to a point. See I only give laws the credibility they deserve. Kokesh wanabe? you really dislike that guy, don't you? lol. Well, I agreed with alot of his views, until my recent discovery of his involvment with drugs, this Philly thing really has me losing respect for him. At the very least, he should have enough respect for freedom and rights not to tie them together with a discusting habit like smoking.

joanie · May 19, 2013

HP995 said:
I believe a fairly large peaceful march, with no one arrested or hurt, and everything nice, would be very helpful to force the public and media to see typical gun owner activities as they are.

Since DC has commie pinko gun laws, and since "We love guns" T shirts aren't going to make front page news by themselves, how about the marchers being armed with toy guns placed in the best possible holsters, and real gear and accessories if possible?

(Whatever toy guns are legal, the best looking ones legally possible, but a squirt gun or Hello Kitty bubble street sweeper is better than nothing.)

That way it could look like an armed march, and indeed it would be, just not very powerful rounds.

I'm unable to march (can't walk well), don't have a power scooter or what have you, far from DC, and low on cash, so it's not my ideal event to participate on foot, but I like the idea!

I'm not an advocate of avoiding lawbreaking at any cost whatsoever, to the very end, regardless of the situation; this USA would never have existed if people back then had adopted that viewpoint. Runaway slaves would never have been harbored either. Right and wrong must triumph regulations when it comes down to the crunch.

However, in this case a peaceful and fully legal march going without a hitch is just what we need, and with legal and political victories being made, it would be much better to lead off with this rather the uncertainties of the Kokesh event.

I'm not going unless I can dance at the Jefferson Memoral.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4ltTmp8xto

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt6-wcSnCl4

eye95 · May 19, 2013

People are fond of pointing out that lawbreaking is justified because, after all, our Founders broke the hell out of it.

They did this, though, at what I call a when-in-the-course-of-human-events moment. We are not there. So, those who wish to break the law to achieve their goals, I am not with you. If the particular way in which you choose to break the laws is to take up arms against the government, know that I will, at the moment, choose to stand on the government's side and take up arms against you.

That could change. If the government marches on the People, trying to take away their arms, it WILL change.

However, until such a sea change, I will not participate in any lawbreaking, not even for unconstitutional laws, in the pursuit of the RKBA, hence my second requirement for participating in any demonstration.

At the moment, I don't see much interest in a second protest. Oh, well, it was a thought.

HP995 · May 19, 2013

I am not with you ... I will, at the moment, choose to stand on the government's side and take up arms against you

Wow, I'm full of admiration.

But as I said:

However, in this case a peaceful and fully legal march going without a hitch is just what we need, and with legal and political victories being made, it would be much better to lead off with this rather the uncertainties of the Kokesh event.

(meaning rather than the uncertainties, typo)

You asked for input, and I responded with a method for a fully legal and peaceful armed march by using toy guns. I don't know much about DC law but I expect surely there are legal toys for the purpose, even squirt guns if necessary as I mentioned, but perhaps much better looking toys.

I think you got sidetracked from your original thrust here, which sounded interesting. Were you indeed interested in ideas for how to do a legal and peaceful march? I agree though, that there doesn't seem to be a lot of interest. Either that or it's a busy weekend for people elsewhere!

WalkingWolf · May 19, 2013

There is no such thing as a unconstitutional law, it is either constitutional or it is void, whether the court has ruled it unconstitutional or not.

Tucker6900 · May 19, 2013

eye95 said:
People are fond of pointing out that lawbreaking is justified because, after all, our Founders broke the hell out of it.

They did this, though, at what I call a when-in-the-course-of-human-events moment. We are not there. So, those who wish to break the law to achieve their goals, I am not with you. If the particular way in which you choose to break the laws is to take up arms against the government, know that I will, at the moment, choose to stand on the government's side and take up arms against you.

That could change. If the government marches on the People, trying to take away their arms, it WILL change.

However, until such a sea change, I will not participate in any lawbreaking, not even for unconstitutional laws, in the pursuit of the RKBA, hence my second requirement for participating in any demonstration.

At the moment, I don't see much interest in a second protest. Oh, well, it was a thought.

Good for you Eye. Well done. I am glad you finally admitted your disease. First step to recovery is accepting who you are. Its nice to know whos side you are really on. Speaking of sides...

I hope for both of our sakes, this march ends peacefully. Id hate to see you lose it all from being on the wrong side.

eye95 · May 19, 2013

What the hell are you talking about?

What a moronic post.

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<o>

WalkingWolf · May 19, 2013

eye95 said:
What the hell are you talking about?

What a moronic post.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>

Posts, and I can't believe you made them...

Never mind, yes I can believe you made them.

Freedom First · May 20, 2013

WalkingWolf said:
There is no such thing as a unconstitutional law, it is either constitutional or it is void, whether the court has ruled it unconstitutional or not.

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner!

Always remember, courts are made of people... And people are often wrong.

eye95 · May 20, 2013

meh.

Folks are playing silly and meaningless games with words.

It matters not whether one calls it an "unconstitutional law" or "void," such laws are on the books, and folks are going to jail for breaking them. Until and unless a court strikes down the law, it has full force, whether or not anyone else is of the opinion that it is unconstitutional or void or whatever other terms one would apply.

The point remains that I won't (and I recommend that others don't) break any laws (regardless of anyone's personal belief of its constitutionality) until and unless we arrive at a WITCOHE moment. If that happens, all bets are off.

Word games don't change reality.

OC for ME · May 20, 2013

Ironic, law abiding gun owners who hint a lawlessness because some law abiding gun owners disagree with a law, a law constituted via our republican form of government. I will not take part in lawlessness or even to hint to condoning lawlessness.

Elections have consequences. It is our duty as liberty centric citizens to restore, via the ballot box, that which was lost at the ballot box.

WalkingWolf · May 20, 2013

eye95 said:
meh.

Folks are playing silly and meaningless games with words.

It matters not whether one calls it an "unconstitutional law" or "void," such laws are on the books, and folks are going to jail for breaking them. Until and unless a court strikes down the law, it has full force, whether or not anyone else is of the opinion that it is unconstitutional or void or whatever other terms one would apply.

The point remains that I won't (and I recommend that others don't) break any laws (regardless of anyone's personal belief of its constitutionality) until and unless we arrive at a WITCOHE moment. If that happens, all bets are off.

Word games don't change reality.

It is a shame we can't see you stomping your feet while posting the above bovine scatology. Nobody is forcing you to stick your neck out. Thank God for people like Rosa Parks and MLK though. Seems they did not agree with you.

Defrock · May 20, 2013

OC for ME said:
Ironic, law abiding gun owners who hint a lawlessness because some law abiding gun owners disagree with a law, a law constituted via our republican form of government. I will not take part in lawlessness or even to hint to condoning lawlessness.

Elections have consequences. It is our duty as liberty centric citizens to restore, via the ballot box, that which was lost at the ballot box.

Democracy is two wolves and sheep deciding what is for dinner. The constitution prevents the wolves from voting the sheep for dinner. The civil rights movement used civil disobedience to get unconstitutional laws changed, just as the protestors at Kokesh's rally are. It is not an armed revolt in that marchers will be fighting their way into DC to take Congress and the Presidency. I'm sure DC police, et al, will use every non-lethal method at their disposal to stop the armed marchers. Whether it gets bloody greatly rest with them.

FreeInAZ · May 20, 2013

The point of this thread was to: see if enough people here would be interested in helping to organize a "legal" armed march. My understanding this would call for folks carrying their firearms in transport mode. The whole idea being that the main point of DC's laws are that GUNS = CRIME/VIOLENCE. We know this to be bunk. So if we could get 5,000 - 10,000 people to transport firearms legally into DC it would then prove their premise to be false. Guns in the hands of lawful citizens do not cause crime. CRIMINALS DO!

The Kokesh march is and will be discredited easily. A unconnected march, carried out by law-abiding citizens will be much, much harder to ignore & highlight just how foolish DC laws are when the crime rate drops when the legal marches are in town. Which we know will be the case. The thugs will skittle away like the rats they are while the marchers and LE are in town. Afterwards when things get back to normal so will the normal crime sprees begin again. Further driving home our point.

eye95 · May 20, 2013

It's a great idea. I just see no interest developing.

That is unfortunate.

skidmark · May 20, 2013

FreeInAZ;1940927... said:
There's your problem in a nutshell. There is no way to legally transport firearms into DC (unless yu are a DC resident, have jumped through all the hoops, and have the necessary paperwork).

I'm going to throw out a fairly screwball idea: On a certain day an unexplained coincidence takes place in which a number of persons, all acting on individual initiative and not in concert with any other person or group, takes a walk from Long Bridge Park in Virginia to the foot/bike path of the George Washingtom Parkway in DC, then to Washington Blvd in Virginia, then down Boundary Channel Drive back to the starting point. In Virginia loaded firearms can legally be open carried[SUP]1[/SUP]. At the DC border all firearms and ammo are unloaded and placed in locked containers, as per FOPA. Firearms are then carried, per FOPA[SUP]2[/SUP], through DC[SUP]3[/SUP] to the Virginia border where they can legally be removed from the locked containers, loaded, and openly carried again.

Please try to punch holes in this. If you do not like my "unorganized" hypothesis, then let's get a permit from NPS for a group walk on the GW Parkway, and from Arlington County for the hike back to Long Bridge Park along the public sidewalk. Admittedly at that point there would have to be a "person in charge" which takes some of the fun out of things.

stay safe.

[SUP]1[/SUP] - see http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-287.4 A firearm

equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine that will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock or (b) shotgun with a magazine that will hold more than seven rounds of the longest ammunition for which it is chambered

Click to expand...

would be illegal (loaded or unloaded) unless the person carrying it had a concealed handgun permit. (Case law does not address if a concealed carry license/permit from another state would be valid. caveat emptor and all that.)

[SUP]2[/SUP] - FOPA provides that persons traveling from one place to another cannot be incarcerated for a firearms offense in a state that has strict gun control laws if the traveler is just passing through (short stops for food and gas), provided that the firearms and ammunition are not immediately accessible, that the firearms are unloaded and, in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment, the firearms are located in a locked container.

[SUP]3[/SUP] - As participants would be walking, there would be no way to place the locked container in a trunk or any other part of a vehicle. Let the DC police scratch their heads about that.

Lord Sega · May 20, 2013

My view on Kokesh's "march" is:
1) Way too many chances for something to go wrong, from either or both sides.
2) Even if there is no escalation from either side (and DC already promises arrest) this just gives ammo to the antis.

My suggestion, either:
1) Be totally legal carry according to the state on this side of the line, march up to (previously marked by GPS) the line on the bridge but do not cross, short speech, then on command come to attention, about face, drop trou and moon'em, march back to nearest park for more speeches & BBQ. Again, don't cross into DC, but show the stupidity of legal here but illegal (felony) there for just a line on a map when the Constitution applies to all Americans everywhere equally.
OR
2) If you really want to protest with an arrest and make a point: NO arms, not even a pocket knife, empty holsters & sheaths. Everyone duct tape a 30 rnd mag (empty) to their shirt and do the full march into DC. Showing the disdain for the law that isn't enforced for NBC's David Gregory, and other ineffectual DC laws. Get creative, maybe tape one on each shoulder, or make a bandoleer of mags, or even tape so many on you are damn near armored like a knight (or Ironman).

Just some thoughts...

Thundar · May 20, 2013

Empty Holster, right?

eye95 said:
It's a great idea. I just see no interest developing.

That is unfortunate.

This is sterile empty holster, right?

I am interested. We can be activists, even when we are not armed.

I have a CZ-82 flap holster that I have stitched shut and placed a padlock on.

It will be on my hip.

No warrant, no lookie.

I also have rifle cases that can be locked. It still has the gun sticker and the picture of the deer on it. Tote one of those around the city. Drive Cathy and her crew crazy.

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