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Thread: "Legitimate Sacrificial Citizen"?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    "Legitimate Sacrificial Citizen"?

    I'm posting this in "News" as it happened about 24 hours ago.


    N.Y. college student was killed by police

    http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...cials-say?lite

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...olice/2322929/

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-...led-by-police/

    At the risk of sounding crass, I delicately ask if is OK to sacrifice a citizen as long as the officer goes home at the end of the shift?
    Last edited by Fuller Malarkey; 05-19-2013 at 02:15 PM.
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    From the cop’s perspective, the expression “law-abiding citizen” is a functional synonym for “Properly obedient slave".

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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    There is no excuse for the taking of an innocent life, whether it be by police or by a private citizen. Had this been a private citizen, he/she would be facing a grand jury indictment, criminal trial, and very probably a long stretch in prison.
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    As a self described critic of law enforcement, I'm going to refrain from armchair quarterbacking on this one...I wasn't there, it was a tragedy, and it was a truly damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario it sounds like. Very sad all around, and now a family has to live without their loved one, and a law enforcement officer has to live knowing that not only was he forced to take someone's life, but he also took an innocent he was trying to protect in the process. Very sad.
    "Sovereign Immunity derives from the common law belief that the king and his agents can do no wrong." - Florida State Law Enforcement Curriculum, Chapter 1 of the text book

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    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    Using this incident as discussion fuel, let's replace the police officer with a legal open carrying citizen.

    Had this been a self defense shooting by an open carrier, that carrier shooting an innocent young woman in the head under the guise of self defense because a bad guy made demands of the open carrier, would you be surprised if that open carrier WAS NOT jailed for a homicide charge? Remember, reports indicate the bad guy fired no rounds. 911 KNEW this was a hostage situation BEFORE the cops went in, as did the cops.

    How many times have you read on in a forum post by a police officer "no matter what, I'm going home at the end of my shift"? Is this one of those "no matter what" situations?
    Last edited by Fuller Malarkey; 05-19-2013 at 03:42 PM.
    Liberty is so strongly a part of human nature that it can be treated as a no-lose argument position.
    ~Citizen

    From the cop’s perspective, the expression “law-abiding citizen” is a functional synonym for “Properly obedient slave".

    "People are not born being "anti-cop" and believing we live in a police state. That is a result of experience."

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    When police do it, it is only collateral damage.

    Notice that this was a KNOWN bad guy that was released on parole, and then guess what? He had an arrest warrant out for violating the terms of that parole.

    Of course, we all know that it was the gun's fault. A gun he was already not allowed to possess.

    But at least we have the moral satisfaction of knowing that the innocent young lady broke no laws. She was an unarmed victim that did her duty to wait for police to come to her aid.

    And then the police did their duty of helping society at large, not the victim.

    I would like to know which one of the eight bullets struck the victim.
    Last edited by MAC702; 05-19-2013 at 03:49 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    This is becoming all to common in the Socialist Republic of New York. I wonder when the people of NYS are going to put their foot down and say "enough is enough".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuller Malarkey View Post
    I'm posting this in "News" as it happened about 24 hours ago.


    N.Y. college student was killed by police

    http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...cials-say?lite

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...olice/2322929/

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-...led-by-police/

    At the risk of sounding crass, I delicately ask if is OK to sacrifice a citizen as long as the officer goes home at the end of the shift?
    Hell yes it is. Anything for officer safety you know.

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    Regular Member rushcreek2's Avatar
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    This is a good example of WHY every adult should assume responsibility for their own safety, and the safety of their family - and NOT TOTALLY rely upon a 911 call to " save" them.

    When we call 911 for police assistance we relinquish our ability to control the outcome of the situation.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rushcreek2 View Post
    This is a good example of WHY every adult should assume responsibility for their own safety, and the safety of their family - and NOT TOTALLY rely upon a 911 call to " save" them...
    And the only reason there was a 911 call was because the bad guy let a girl out to go get money. It was a home invasion and none of them could even call for help until then.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    The police are highly trained experts in handling and shooting guns. They actually are tested on a regular periodic basis in order to be allowed to continue carrying their guns.

    Unlike mere mortal citizens, who may not even have had to fire a single shot before being issued a license/permit to carry a gun - or even worse, those who "open carry" because they do not even need a license/permit to do that.

    I've watched many a "practical shooting" match in which a hostage target was part of the scenario. There are invariably quite a few target pasters on the "no shoot" hostage cardboard. I guess that means that even mere mortals that practice regularly are prone to hitting the wrong target at times.

    What I don't understand is why the officer was not using cover that would have both reduced the chance of getting hit if shot at, and providing a stable firing position. All the details are not given, but it sounds to me as if the officer was quite exposed when the BG "menaced him" by pointing the gun towards him. And it sounds like the officer did a full magazine dump once he started shooting.

    A hostage situation with the BG holding the gun on the hostage seems to call for instant decapacitation of the BG, which generally means a head shot. One supported, aimed shot to the head, obseerve its effect, and apply an additioonal supported, aimed shot if necessary. If the first shot did not instantly decapacitate the BG is is likely that he would be falling in some manner, which ought to put the hostage further below the point of the first supported, aimed shot. I'm thinking the officer "shot him to the ground" and that the BG's body twisted/turned while going to the ground, putting the hostage in the line of fire.

    Without some very specific details to counter my general thoughts, my thinking is the cop was both reckless and negligent.

    stay safe.
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  11. #11
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    (snip) And it sounds like the officer did a full magazine dump once he started shooting.


    Without some very specific details to counter my general thoughts, my thinking is the cop was both reckless and negligent.

    stay safe.
    Typical ROE for NYS police~~spray and pray. Until the police are held accountable for shooting innocent civilians this will continue, and continue. But hey it is only citizens anyway. I hope this officer is held accountable, but considering it is NYS, I highly doubt it.

    While I carried a semi auto as a police officer, I think the change to high capacity weapons for police in general was a huge mistake for the safety of citizens.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
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    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
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    Barring some very specific information that the officer acted criminally or negligently, I give him a pass. The only fault I see so far rests with the criminal.

    The story does highlight one reason why we should not be relying solely on the police for our safety. We should be able to rely on ourselves, our family, and our friends. Cowering behind a couch or running screaming from the house did nothing to help save the student. Nor did she seem prepared in the least to protect herself.

    As far as I can tell, the cops did what they could. It wasn't good enough.

  13. #13
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Not in my book, the officer is just as responsible for his shots as any citizen. IMO the hostage's life is just as important if not more than the police officer. She was not getting paid to put her butt on the line, in fact she was counting on the good judgement of the police officer, which was lacking. If the officer was actually being fired on I might cut him some slack, but so far that does not appear to be the case. The officer IMO should have sought a position of cover to take a responsible shot. What good does killing the hostage to save the hostage make?
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    I find it interesting that by all news accounts, the bad guy had the girl victim in a headlock, gun pointed at her head threatening to the police "I'm going to kill her". The police did not fire on the bad guy. An eyewitness, John Kourtessis [male hostage inside the house] has given some statements:

    'I can’t go back to jail! One of you, get over here,' Smith said.

    He grabbed Andrea in a headlock and forced Mr Kourtessis to crawl with him down the stairs in an effort to evade the officers inside.

    'I see an officer there, with his gun out, standing by the steps. So I’m thinking, "Good, there’s a cop there,"' he told the Post.

    At that point, he escaped, running and hiding behind a couch.

    Police spotted Smith and trained their guns on him.
    'Put the gun down and let her go,' officers shouted.
    Smith replied, 'I'm going to kill her.'
    'I hear POP POP, two shots,' he said.



    No mention of the bad guy Smith pointing the gun at police.
    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz2Tmx5SWco
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    The bad guy had his gun to the woman's head. The police did not feel the need to fire. No threat worthy of shooting the bad guy as long as the gun was pointed at the woman they would in moments themselves shoot. Eight shots fired at a suspect using a hostage as a human shield.

    I wonder if much of this is due to the mindset that the police must dominate at any cost? That hostage negotiation is overrated and a contradiction to the mantra "dominate at any cost".

    To summarize:

    Young woman head locked and helpless by bad guy.

    Bad guy hiding behind helpless girl, has his gun to her head. Police see no threat, do not open fire.

    Cops with bullet proof vests and guns and most likely backup moments away open fire when it is purported THEY feel afraid, killing hostage.

    Hostages offer reports differing from the police reports of the incident.
    Liberty is so strongly a part of human nature that it can be treated as a no-lose argument position.
    ~Citizen

    From the cop’s perspective, the expression “law-abiding citizen” is a functional synonym for “Properly obedient slave".

    "People are not born being "anti-cop" and believing we live in a police state. That is a result of experience."

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    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Barring some very specific information that the officer acted criminally or negligently, I give him a pass. The only fault I see so far rests with the criminal.

    The story does highlight one reason why we should not be relying solely on the police for our safety. We should be able to rely on ourselves, our family, and our friends. Cowering behind a couch or running screaming from the house did nothing to help save the student. Nor did she seem prepared in the least to protect herself.

    As far as I can tell, the cops did what they could. It wasn't good enough.
    You can say all you want about the hostage taker's choices, but he is not the trained professional with a responsibility to the public.
    Liberty is so strongly a part of human nature that it can be treated as a no-lose argument position.
    ~Citizen

    From the cop’s perspective, the expression “law-abiding citizen” is a functional synonym for “Properly obedient slave".

    "People are not born being "anti-cop" and believing we live in a police state. That is a result of experience."

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    "Legitimate Sacrificial Citizen"?

    The "hostage taker"? What are you talking about. The only thing I said about him was that he is ultimately responsible for the crime and its outcome. Were you objecting to that??

    I am confused by your reply.


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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    The police are highly trained experts in handling and shooting guns. They actually are tested on a regular periodic basis in order to be allowed to continue carrying their guns.

    Unlike mere mortal citizens, who may not even have had to fire a single shot before being issued a license/permit to carry a gun - or even worse, those who "open carry" because they do not even need a license/permit to do that.

    I've watched many a "practical shooting" match in which a hostage target was part of the scenario. There are invariably quite a few target pasters on the "no shoot" hostage cardboard. I guess that means that even mere mortals that practice regularly are prone to hitting the wrong target at times.

    What I don't understand is why the officer was not using cover that would have both reduced the chance of getting hit if shot at, and providing a stable firing position. All the details are not given, but it sounds to me as if the officer was quite exposed when the BG "menaced him" by pointing the gun towards him. And it sounds like the officer did a full magazine dump once he started shooting.

    A hostage situation with the BG holding the gun on the hostage seems to call for instant decapacitation of the BG, which generally means a head shot. One supported, aimed shot to the head, obseerve its effect, and apply an additioonal supported, aimed shot if necessary. If the first shot did not instantly decapacitate the BG is is likely that he would be falling in some manner, which ought to put the hostage further below the point of the first supported, aimed shot. I'm thinking the officer "shot him to the ground" and that the BG's body twisted/turned while going to the ground, putting the hostage in the line of fire.

    Without some very specific details to counter my general thoughts, my thinking is the cop was both reckless and negligent.

    stay safe.

    To be proficient one must practice regularly. I believe all LEOs should practice regularly. I include those at the Federal level. I ran some simply numbers and was rather surprised by the outcome.

    Number of Federal LEOs = 75, 000 × 200 practice rounds per month = 15, 000, 000 rounds × 12 months = 180, 000, 000 rounds a year × 5 years ( this was the time frame of the DHS purchase order that caused so much up roar) = 900, 000, 000 rounds.

    That is almost 1 billion rounds for practice alone. This does not include duty ammo or ammo for additional training for special response teams (ie hostage rescue and that sort).

    With these numbers I think the government ammo scandal may have been greatly exaggerated. That is unless you think less than 200 rounds a month is all that is necessary to maintain proficiency at a level nesessary to minimize tragedies like the one in the OP.
    Last edited by SavageOne; 05-20-2013 at 04:33 AM.
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    Thanks for the enlightening math. Just a few questions though:

    Does DHS purchase the ammo for all 75,000 federal LEOs, or just for those within the DHS?

    Was the ammo that they bought primarily range ammo, or the more lethal variety, or some mix thereof?

    Did you notice that the order was for 78% more ammo than the amount you calculated?

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Thread title needs changing. The innocent victim was not sacrificed. I await further information. The officer's name will be released at some point.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Thread title needs changing. The innocent victim was not sacrificed. I await further information. The officer's name will be released at some point.
    I agree. Unless specific information develops to the contrary, I believe that the officers were trying to help the victim (who chose to rely on them rather than on armed and trained family, friends, and herself) when she fell victim to a poorly-placed shot.

    It doesn't always happen like on TV, where the cop puts a single shot between the eyes of the BG, so that he drops like so much dirty laundry to the ground, leaving the helpless victim in a state of bewildered relief. The key is not to place oneself in the situation where that one incredible shot is necessary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SavageOne View Post
    Number of Federal LEOs = 75, 000
    On information and belief, the number of armed FedGov agents is in excess of one million.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Barring some very specific information that the officer acted criminally or negligently, I give him a pass. The only fault I see so far rests with the criminal.

    The story does highlight one reason why we should not be relying solely on the police for our safety. We should be able to rely on ourselves, our family, and our friends. Cowering behind a couch or running screaming from the house did nothing to help save the student. Nor did she seem prepared in the least to protect herself.

    As far as I can tell, the cops did what they could. It wasn't good enough.
    Would you "give the officer a pass" if it was your kid he shot?

    And you cannot blame the student ... while it would have been helpful to know self defense or had a gun, its not appropriate to place any blame on the victim. Highlighting the need to have some level of personal protection capability is OK.

    Makes no difference if it was a cop or non-cop .... shooting in that situation is negligent ... willful and wantonly in a civil light...and likely manslaughter at least in a criminal light.

    Let a jury decide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Would you "give the officer a pass" if it was your kid he shot? <snip>
    Appeal to emotion.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    I agree. Unless specific information develops to the contrary, I believe that the officers were trying to help the victim (who chose to rely on them rather than on armed and trained family, friends, and herself) when she fell victim to a poorly-placed shot.

    It doesn't always happen like on TV, where the cop puts a single shot between the eyes of the BG, so that he drops like so much dirty laundry to the ground, leaving the helpless victim in a state of bewildered relief. The key is not to place oneself in the situation where that one incredible shot is necessary.
    If it wasn't so pathetic, sick, and disgusting, it would almost be funny. Since when is shooting a victim in the head in a barrage of uncontrolled gunfire helping? If anyone is not confident in their shot, they should NOT take it!

    Government apologists make me sick!

    The police officer responsible should be charged, tried, and punished for the crime. Just like any other citizen would be.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 05-20-2013 at 01:07 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    It it wasn't so pathetic, sick, and disgusting, it would almost be funny. Since when is shooting a victim in the head in a barrage of uncontrolled gunfire helping? If anyone is not confident in their shot, they should NOT take it!

    Government apologists make me sick!

    The police officer responsible should be charged, tried, and punished for the crime. Just like any other citizen would be.
    +1 let a jury make a decision ...

    Civil suit is almost guaranteed so the state will protect its own interests .. regarding criminal charges

    "Hey Sarge, the hostage standoff has been mitigated"

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