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"Legitimate Sacrificial Citizen"?

eye95

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Thread title needs changing. The innocent victim was not sacrificed. I await further information. The officer's name will be released at some point.

I agree. Unless specific information develops to the contrary, I believe that the officers were trying to help the victim (who chose to rely on them rather than on armed and trained family, friends, and herself) when she fell victim to a poorly-placed shot.

It doesn't always happen like on TV, where the cop puts a single shot between the eyes of the BG, so that he drops like so much dirty laundry to the ground, leaving the helpless victim in a state of bewildered relief. The key is not to place oneself in the situation where that one incredible shot is necessary.
 

davidmcbeth

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Barring some very specific information that the officer acted criminally or negligently, I give him a pass. The only fault I see so far rests with the criminal.

The story does highlight one reason why we should not be relying solely on the police for our safety. We should be able to rely on ourselves, our family, and our friends. Cowering behind a couch or running screaming from the house did nothing to help save the student. Nor did she seem prepared in the least to protect herself.

As far as I can tell, the cops did what they could. It wasn't good enough.

Would you "give the officer a pass" if it was your kid he shot?

And you cannot blame the student ... while it would have been helpful to know self defense or had a gun, its not appropriate to place any blame on the victim. Highlighting the need to have some level of personal protection capability is OK.

Makes no difference if it was a cop or non-cop .... shooting in that situation is negligent ... willful and wantonly in a civil light...and likely manslaughter at least in a criminal light.

Let a jury decide.
 

WalkingWolf

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I agree. Unless specific information develops to the contrary, I believe that the officers were trying to help the victim (who chose to rely on them rather than on armed and trained family, friends, and herself) when she fell victim to a poorly-placed shot.

It doesn't always happen like on TV, where the cop puts a single shot between the eyes of the BG, so that he drops like so much dirty laundry to the ground, leaving the helpless victim in a state of bewildered relief. The key is not to place oneself in the situation where that one incredible shot is necessary.

If it wasn't so pathetic, sick, and disgusting, it would almost be funny. Since when is shooting a victim in the head in a barrage of uncontrolled gunfire helping? If anyone is not confident in their shot, they should NOT take it!

Government apologists make me sick!

The police officer responsible should be charged, tried, and punished for the crime. Just like any other citizen would be.
 
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davidmcbeth

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It it wasn't so pathetic, sick, and disgusting, it would almost be funny. Since when is shooting a victim in the head in a barrage of uncontrolled gunfire helping? If anyone is not confident in their shot, they should NOT take it!

Government apologists make me sick!

The police officer responsible should be charged, tried, and punished for the crime. Just like any other citizen would be.

+1 let a jury make a decision ...

Civil suit is almost guaranteed so the state will protect its own interests .. regarding criminal charges

"Hey Sarge, the hostage standoff has been mitigated"
 

WalkingWolf

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+1 let a jury make a decision ...

Civil suit is almost guaranteed so the state will protect its own interests .. regarding criminal charges

"Hey Sarge, the hostage standoff has been mitigated"

Their claim will probably be the shooting was a success, they did prevent the suspect from killing the hostage. :uhoh:
 

XD40sc

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When the bg took aim at the cop, the cop had no choice. IF the cop had not fired, the cop would be dead, and the girl would also likely be dead, and the bg would still have been alive and could have continued to kill.

I'm sure the cop did his damnest to have a good outcome, but that's not always possible in a gun fight.

The bg started this with the armed robbery that escalated out of control. Probably started long before that when he illegally obtained the gun he used.

The fact that so many are dog piling the cop is not acceptable. This guy will live with this the rest of his life, just for doing his best in a bad situation. Were it any of you, I want you with absolute certainty tell me you would hit only the bg, or ****.
 

eye95

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When the bg took aim at the cop, the cop had no choice. IF the cop had not fired, the cop would be dead, and the girl would also likely be dead, and the bg would still have been alive and could have continued to kill.

I'm sure the cop did his damnest to have a good outcome, but that's not always possible in a gun fight.

The bg started this with the armed robbery that escalated out of control. Probably started long before that when he illegally obtained the gun he used.

The fact that so many are dog piling the cop is not acceptable. This guy will live with this the rest of his life, just for doing his best in a bad situation. Were it any of you, I want you with absolute certainty tell me you would hit only the bg, or ****.

I could make no such guarantee. Only TV cops can. And then, only when it would advance the script in the way the writer wanted it to.

Excellent analysis.
 

WalkingWolf

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When the bg took aim at the cop, the cop had no choice. IF the cop had not fired, the cop would be dead, and the girl would also likely be dead, and the bg would still have been alive and could have continued to kill.

I'm sure the cop did his damnest to have a good outcome, but that's not always possible in a gun fight.

The bg started this with the armed robbery that escalated out of control. Probably started long before that when he illegally obtained the gun he used.

The fact that so many are dog piling the cop is not acceptable. This guy will live with this the rest of his life, just for doing his best in a bad situation. Were it any of you, I want you with absolute certainty tell me you would hit only the bg, or ****.

The BG(police officer) could have took cover, OR if he was that close a head shot should have been no problem, if he can't do that he had no business firing. The result was the same as the suspect shooting the victim, she is dead.

And I have been in his situation, I was the first officer on the scene for a hostage crisis at Fiat Allis research and development center. All officers until the sheriff arrived obeyed my commands, not to engage, to seek cover, and contain, until hostage negotiators arrived. All hostages were recovered safely and the suspect was taken into custody without incident. And yes several times the suspect pointed a rifle at me in my cover position. As I was the closest. Self control, patience, and common sense, and above all the safety of the victims comes before officer safety. ALL officers back then practiced head shots from combat distances to 25 yards, if you cannot hit a head at 25 yards you have no business being a police officer.

If ya can't handle that take off the badge!

He should be arrested, formally charged, tried, and if convicted, imprisoned. There are no excuses for killing innocent citizens, NONE!
 

ron73440

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The BG(police officer) could have took cover, OR if he was that close a head shot should have been no problem, if he can't do that he had no business firing. The result was the same as the suspect shooting the victim, she is dead.

And I have been in his situation, I was the first officer on the scene for a hostage crisis at Fiat Allis research and development center. All officers until the sheriff arrived obeyed my commands, not to engage, to seek cover, and contain, until hostage negotiators arrived. All hostages were recovered safely and the suspect was taken into custody without incident. And yes several times the suspect pointed a rifle at me in my cover position. As I was the closest. Self control, patience, and common sense, and above all the safety of the victims comes before officer safety. ALL officers back then practiced head shots from combat distances to 25 yards, if you cannot hit a head at 25 yards you have no business being a police officer.

If ya can't handle that take off the badge!

He should be arrested, formally charged, tried, and if convicted, imprisoned. There are no excuses for killing innocent citizens, NONE!

This is how it should be, and when it's reversed, you end up with these kind of tragedies.

The "officer safety" mentality also leads to LAPD shooting a random truck because they thought it looked like Dorners
 

WalkingWolf

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This is how it should be, and when it's reversed, you end up with these kind of tragedies.

The "officer safety" mentality also leads to LAPD shooting a random truck because they thought it looked like Dorners

It is also a problem that has developed since the switch to hi cap magazines for police. It seems that accuracy as been replaced with throwing as many bullets as possible. When a officer is limited to 10 rounds or less, he knows that he may be taken down while reloading, and tends to make each shot count. With a revolver it is a matter of survival to control your fire, and make it count. Police in NYS seem to have a particular problem with spray and pray tactics. It is unacceptable and about time for a officer to go to prison to get them to change.
 

HP995

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Officer: Hey, let us help you. (Pow pow pow.) How's that?

Dead Citizen: Uh, thanks for "ending the situation."

Would you "give the officer a pass" if it was your kid he shot?

Exactly, anyone who just gives this a pass based on the limited info we have overlooks the humanity of the victim. It doesn't look unavoidable to me. If we had all the info and there were details that showed it actually couldn't be helped, that's different. Based on what we know, it looks reckless.

Letting off 8 bullets without being sure of the target and the hostage. Just because they used a hostage plate/target a few times at the range with most hits on the bg area doesn't mean they can treat a real situation with the same mindset. You can't just "tape over" the stray hit and deduct a few points from the overall score when it's real life and the victim to be protected is now bleeding and dying.

And I have been in his situation, I was the first officer on the scene for a hostage crisis at Fiat Allis research and development center. All officers until the sheriff arrived obeyed my commands, not to engage, to seek cover, and contain, until hostage negotiators arrived. All hostages were recovered safely and the suspect was taken into custody without incident. And yes several times the suspect pointed a rifle at me in my cover position. As I was the closest. Self control, patience, and common sense, and above all the safety of the victims comes before officer safety. ALL officers back then practiced head shots from combat distances to 25 yards, if you cannot hit a head at 25 yards you have no business being a police officer.

Wolf, I salute you! This is the first time I realized you were a cop. It's great to see an officer who has superb skills and sense, plus CARES about citizens and what's right/wrong.

I know there are many good cops out there, but not nearly enough, and we keep seeing the bad ones. I wish they all had your attitude!
 

SavageOne

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Thanks for the enlightening math. Just a few questions though:

Does DHS purchase the ammo for all 75,000 federal LEOs, or just for those within the DHS?

Was the ammo that they bought primarily range ammo, or the more lethal variety, or some mix thereof?

Did you notice that the order was for 78% more ammo than the amount you calculated?


It has been reported that DHS does purchase the ammo for these agents. DHS spokesman Peter Boogaard stated that the DHS has over 100, 000 armed agents. Using just the 100, 000 number raises the total to 1.2 billion rounds needed just for practice. It should also be noted that is only for issued sidearms and as stated does not include practice with long arms.

http://rt.com/usa/dhs-ammo-investigation-napolitano-645/

The ammo from the various purchase orders was a mix of fmj and hollow point. Both of which one would assume would be used to train with( it is always good to practice with your carry ammo).

The purchase orders were actually open ended for quantities up to the stated max. That of course means that smaller quantities could be ordered. The orders were broken into lots and spread out over five years. Many of the stories I read acted like the DHS had 1.6 billion rounds stored in a warehouse somewhere.
 

SavageOne

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Several here have said things like "what if it had been one us" , "what if it had been a LAC instead of a cop". OK, let's assume it was. Would there be the flood of posts demanding that the LAC person be charged? Oh, that's right, according to the scenario the LAC would already be charged. So, how many posts do you think there would be supporting the LAC? Posts stating that the prosecutors were only going after a citizen whose only crime was trying to help and tragically failing. How possibke do you think it would be if the roles were reversed and it was a LAC who shot this girl that you would see posts like " if it had been a cop they never would have charged him"?

We can't have it both ways.
 
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WalkingWolf

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Several here have said things like "what if it had been one us" , "what if it had been a LAC instead of a cop". OK, let's assume it was. Would there be the flood of posts demanding that the LAC person be charged? Oh, that's right by, according to the scenario the LAC would already be charged. So, how many posts do you think there would be supporting the LAC? Posts stating that the prosecutors were only going after a citizen whose only crime was trying to help and tragically failing. How possibke do you think it would be if the roles were reversed and it was a LAC who shot this girl that you would see posts like " if it had been a cop they never would have charged him"?

We can't have it both ways.

I think this was discussed last year when George Zimmerman was arrested for shooting a street thug, not a hostage. There was different opinions there, and clearly he was charged, and probably would not have been if he was a police officer. Then there is the Culpeper incident where some members here have taken the police officers side, others not so much. I think from what I have seen pretty much most members here would hold a LAC accountable for shooting a innocent hostage. I would, but let's take an informal poll?

BTW HP I am retired, and have been for a good number of years. Things have changed considerably since I was working, IMO police were more a part of the community than they are today. Since 9-11 they have gradually turned into storm troopers.
 
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Fuller Malarkey

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When the bg took aim at the cop, the cop had no choice. IF the cop had not fired, the cop would be dead, and the girl would also likely be dead, and the bg would still have been alive and could have continued to kill.

I'm sure the cop did his damnest to have a good outcome, but that's not always possible in a gun fight.

The bg started this with the armed robbery that escalated out of control. Probably started long before that when he illegally obtained the gun he used.

The fact that so many are dog piling the cop is not acceptable. This guy will live with this the rest of his life, just for doing his best in a bad situation. Were it any of you, I want you with absolute certainty tell me you would hit only the bg, or ****.

Eyewitness [co-hostage] does not confirm bad guy "took aim at the cop". The co-hostage said the bad guy was ordered to drop the gun, and then the "officers" [implying more than one] fired twice. The implication being the shot may have been fired for "failure to comply", when the welfare of the hostages should have outweighed the wants and desires of the cops.
 
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eye95

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Eyewitness [co-hostage] does not confirm bad guy "took aim at the cop". The co-hostage said the bad guy was ordered to drop the gun, and then the "officers" [implying more than one] fired twice. The implication being the shot may have been fired for "failure to comply", when the welfare of the hostages should have outweighed the wants and desires of the cops.

Do you have a citation for what the hostages said? I don't see anything about witness statements in the three articles cited in the OP.

Considering that the police say that EIGHT shots were fired by them, I wonder about the accuracy of what you are reporting and would like to read the news story (or the police report or the witness statement) for myself.
 

Fuller Malarkey

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Do you have a citation for what the hostages said?

Why, yes, yes I do. And I posted it in post #15.

I don't see anything about witness statements in the three articles cited in the OP.

I wasn't aware my ability to post links was limited to the post I made with three links. Can you refer me to a rule of that nature?

Considering that the police say that EIGHT shots were fired by them, I wonder about the accuracy of what you are reporting and would like to read the news story (or the police report or the witness statement) for myself.

Police are trained and encouraged to lie. As I have no idea when or what situations this training and encouragement applies, I consider everything they say to be suspect.

For example: A cop shooting at a suspect holding a human shield in front of himself. The motivation for shooting becomes suspect. I can't ignore the actions taken and the options available.
 
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eye95

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You seem to be reporting an article that does not say what the other hostages said and using that to indicate that the police version is false.

Not buying it.

If you can find a witness saying whether or not the hostage taker pointed a gun at the cops, that would inform us. The fact that a story is silent on what any witnesses said about such a pointing is wildly uninformative.

Moving on.
 
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