Manzanita
Regular Member
And my first thought after reading the KRS paragraph he referenced was, "damn right".
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force to evacuate
- Thread starter ps1mhd
- Start date
And my first thought after reading the KRS paragraph he referenced was, "damn right".
Mantioch
Regular Member
I get it.
Everyone:
My sincere apologies. And I'm being very serious, not sarcastic. I want to say that I get it now. I spent a good portion of the day (too much, in fact) researching the UN Arms Treaty, and the "Freedom from War" document circa 1961. This lead me to various reports and videos concerning the illegal disarmament of American citizens during Hurricane Katrina by night raids from US National Guard members from Oklahoma who had been federalized as well as NOPD.
I get it. And I now agree. Seems like it won't be police coming in, though. It will be federalized troops with automatic weapons kicking in your doors at 2 in the morning.
Drake, neuroblades. Sorry, dudes.
Everyone:
My sincere apologies. And I'm being very serious, not sarcastic. I want to say that I get it now. I spent a good portion of the day (too much, in fact) researching the UN Arms Treaty, and the "Freedom from War" document circa 1961. This lead me to various reports and videos concerning the illegal disarmament of American citizens during Hurricane Katrina by night raids from US National Guard members from Oklahoma who had been federalized as well as NOPD.
I get it. And I now agree. Seems like it won't be police coming in, though. It will be federalized troops with automatic weapons kicking in your doors at 2 in the morning.
Drake, neuroblades. Sorry, dudes.
DrakeZ07
Regular Member
Apology accepted, now come over here and give me a big hug! Because huggles make the world go round!~ [at least it does in my fragile reality].
KyDevilDog
New member
I watched those videos a while back also. They was troublesome to me. Can that happen in Ky. where it is in our state constitution that it is not allowed? In a time of emergency or natural disaster does federal law over ride state charters? I on the other had, have quite a few rifles, handguns, and a few shotguns. I have a few that are not in my house. Some are stored... well, I wont say where, but they are very well concealed with ammo and everything for them.
KYGlockster
Activist Member
I found this while searching the statutes and I just cannot believe what I have read. Let me know if anyone knew of this, because I sure didn't.
Anyways, as it turns out, PAID firefighters are considered PEACE OFFICERS in Kentucky, and have ALL of the POWERS that are given to SHERIFFS! Yes, you read that right folks!
I figured this was a good place to post this, since it pertains to the question that was asked. Here are a couple statutes:
75.160 Attendance of chief at board meetings -- Definition of chief -- Members as peace officers.
(1) The chief of the fire department in fire protection districts shall attend all sessions of the board, except executive sessions, and he shall execute all the orders of the board. Whenever "chief" is used in KRS 75.100 to 75.260, it shall include the assistant chief when the chief is not on duty.
(2) The regular members of the fire department in fire protection districts, except volunteer fireman, shall have the same powers of ARREST as now given by law to SHERIFFS of this Commonwealth and they are hereby expressly declared conservators of the public peace whose duties, in addition to their other prescribed duties, are to conserve the peace, ENFORCE all laws and preserve order, and they shall have and are hereby expressly given the same right and the same POWER TO ARREST, SEARCH and SEIZE as is now given by law to sheriffs of this Commonwealth, and they shall be at all times subject to the orders of the county judge/executive in which the fire district lies while enforcing the provisions of this section. Provided, however, that members of said fire departments shall not have the power to serve subpoenas, summonses and notices in civil cases and they shall receive no fees for performing any of the duties prescribed in this section as pertains to powers of law enforcement. The members shall constitute a law enforcement agency in addition to the patrol and investigation functions of the sheriff and his deputies under KRS 75.150 to 75.170.
UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!!!
This helps with the question that has been asked:
75.440 Funds available to recognized and certified fire department -- Rights and responsibilities of department -- Fire chief...
....
(3) The officers and firefighters, whether paid or unpaid, of each fire department created pursuant to KRS Chapter 273 and recognized and certified by the commission shall select a chief. The appointment of the chief shall be subject to the approval of the governing board of the department. The chief shall establish a chain of command within the department. The chief, or the highest person available in the chain of command if the chief cannot be present, shall, subject to all state statutes as applicable, have the following rights and responsibilities:
(a) Authority to order the IMMEDIATE EVACUATION of areas endangered by fire, a hazardous materials incident, or OTHER impending DISASTER that constitutes a THREAT to life or property;
(b) Authority to be in charge of all fire ground operations at the scene of a fire or OTHER emergency;
.....
Anyways, as it turns out, PAID firefighters are considered PEACE OFFICERS in Kentucky, and have ALL of the POWERS that are given to SHERIFFS! Yes, you read that right folks!
I figured this was a good place to post this, since it pertains to the question that was asked. Here are a couple statutes:
75.160 Attendance of chief at board meetings -- Definition of chief -- Members as peace officers.
(1) The chief of the fire department in fire protection districts shall attend all sessions of the board, except executive sessions, and he shall execute all the orders of the board. Whenever "chief" is used in KRS 75.100 to 75.260, it shall include the assistant chief when the chief is not on duty.
(2) The regular members of the fire department in fire protection districts, except volunteer fireman, shall have the same powers of ARREST as now given by law to SHERIFFS of this Commonwealth and they are hereby expressly declared conservators of the public peace whose duties, in addition to their other prescribed duties, are to conserve the peace, ENFORCE all laws and preserve order, and they shall have and are hereby expressly given the same right and the same POWER TO ARREST, SEARCH and SEIZE as is now given by law to sheriffs of this Commonwealth, and they shall be at all times subject to the orders of the county judge/executive in which the fire district lies while enforcing the provisions of this section. Provided, however, that members of said fire departments shall not have the power to serve subpoenas, summonses and notices in civil cases and they shall receive no fees for performing any of the duties prescribed in this section as pertains to powers of law enforcement. The members shall constitute a law enforcement agency in addition to the patrol and investigation functions of the sheriff and his deputies under KRS 75.150 to 75.170.
UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!!!
This helps with the question that has been asked:
75.440 Funds available to recognized and certified fire department -- Rights and responsibilities of department -- Fire chief...
....
(3) The officers and firefighters, whether paid or unpaid, of each fire department created pursuant to KRS Chapter 273 and recognized and certified by the commission shall select a chief. The appointment of the chief shall be subject to the approval of the governing board of the department. The chief shall establish a chain of command within the department. The chief, or the highest person available in the chain of command if the chief cannot be present, shall, subject to all state statutes as applicable, have the following rights and responsibilities:
(a) Authority to order the IMMEDIATE EVACUATION of areas endangered by fire, a hazardous materials incident, or OTHER impending DISASTER that constitutes a THREAT to life or property;
(b) Authority to be in charge of all fire ground operations at the scene of a fire or OTHER emergency;
.....
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EMNofSeattle
Regular Member
so????
New York City has the exact same deal going.
I don't see an issue with this. unless you support zero law enforcement period there should be no problems.
can't firemen carry on duty in KY?
KYGlockster
Activist Member
So?
They are FIREmen. I have a problem with this because it is absurd.
Fire departments are not law enforcement agencies, at least they shouldn't be, and this is giving them extreme power. We have separation of powers for a reason. People who fight fires and work vehicle accidents should not have peace officer powers in my opinion.
As for not supporting ANY law enforcement, that would be hard being as I am an LEO. However, we have peace officers and agencies who dedicate everything to law enforcement. Fire fighters receive NO training in law enforcement, so why should they have these powers?
I informed a couple other officers I work with of this and they were speechless.
DrakeZ07
Regular Member
I have no problem with, and would wholeheartedly support not only Firefighters, but EMT workers having Peace officer status. LEO's aren't special groups who are the only ones capable of exercising, and enforcing the law. Heck, Someone can be elected constable, and have the same authority as a sheriff, but not be required to attend any police training.
I specifically know a half dozen cops who acted, and sincerely thought they knew everything there is to know about basic/advanced life support, when I worked as an EMT. They would even go so far as to give orders to us in regarding patient treatment, and in the particular scenes I was at, their orders was lawful, because of local ordnances that gave LEOs obscene authority over EMS actions. But, no one complained about the LEO's, who was never given a seconds moment of how to apply a ACE bandage, authority to tell me or other EMT's who to treat, who not to treat, what patient had priority, or that a cop with a minor angina attack, deserved treatment moreso than a by-stander in cardiac arrest.
Mentally and professionally speaking, the only difference between a Firefighter, and a Cop, is one risks their life on a daily basis to save lives for ten bucks an hour, and has severe back and body medical problems by the time they're 40, and the other gets paid four times as much to sit in a cruiser for six hours a day, take hour-long lunch breaks, and only once in a while actually have to put their life on the line, but only when they are extremely well equipped to handle a situation that is entirely blown out of proportion, gets damn good medical benefits, gets legal immunity, a communist workers union that makes a city/county bend over backwards for them, and has a by far the safest job occupation compared to other low-paying jobs that are overlooked, get worshiped for doing menial tasks, and abuse citizens at-will with no potential ramifications whatsoever.
So, yea, Fire Departments are not LEA's, and FIrefighters are not LEO's, but I sure as hell know one thing that is for sure, I'd rather have a firefighter exercising LE authority, than some B.U.F.F. fresh from a technical school's "Criminal Justice" program, or some scrawny bald white guy with a pedo-stache straight out of the military after doing three tours in Iraq and Afghanistan with mental problems and PTSD out the arse.
EMNofSeattle
Regular Member
you must be firefighting in the wrong town. professional firefighters in my area get pay and benefits on par with the local LE agencies..
KYGlockster
Activist Member
Why don't we just give every government employee these powers?
Would that make sense?
Firefighters have too many responsibilities as it is now, do they really need to be peace officers as well?
I am all for our constitutional officers, but I am also for limited government. When we start giving government employees all kinds of powers, they start getting abused. Not that this is the case here, but the fact that most firefighters know NOTHING about criminal law or OUR constitutional rights is of concern.
@Drake:
You would rather have a firefighter that knows nothing about the law or constitution than an individual that took the time and effort to obtain a degree in Criminal Justice to have Peace Officer powers? So you would rather have someone that did NOTHING to obtain those powers over someone who devoted a good portion of their life to get a degree so that he could obtain those powers? When you are willing to go to school you obviously have commitment. Firefighters are firefighters because they are committed to being so and want to be so, meaning they aren't committed to being Peace Officers, if they were they would've chose that profession.
And why the disregard for technical schools? I go to ACTC which is an accredited college just like any other. What college do you attend?
Would that make sense?
Firefighters have too many responsibilities as it is now, do they really need to be peace officers as well?
I am all for our constitutional officers, but I am also for limited government. When we start giving government employees all kinds of powers, they start getting abused. Not that this is the case here, but the fact that most firefighters know NOTHING about criminal law or OUR constitutional rights is of concern.
@Drake:
You would rather have a firefighter that knows nothing about the law or constitution than an individual that took the time and effort to obtain a degree in Criminal Justice to have Peace Officer powers? So you would rather have someone that did NOTHING to obtain those powers over someone who devoted a good portion of their life to get a degree so that he could obtain those powers? When you are willing to go to school you obviously have commitment. Firefighters are firefighters because they are committed to being so and want to be so, meaning they aren't committed to being Peace Officers, if they were they would've chose that profession.
And why the disregard for technical schools? I go to ACTC which is an accredited college just like any other. What college do you attend?
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EMNofSeattle
Regular Member
What the hell is ACTC? This must be a regional thing since virtually no full time police officers in my area, at least that I know of have a criminal justice degree. In fact one police recruiter I talked to said I major in something else and called CJ a waste of time.
Is there any actual evidence of the peace officer firemen being a problem in
Kentucky, or is this just another "shooting wars over parking spaces, blood will run in the streets" chicken little argument
09jisaac
Regular Member
Ashland Community and Technical College. Many of the younger local officers hold a degree in Criminal Justice but most of the seasoned officers do not.
Is there any evidence of this being a problem? Not to my knowledge, but every perceived weakness in a system should be scrutinized BEFORE it becomes a problem.
Personally, I see little wrong with them having this authority but I can see a bunch of problems with them using it.
davidmcbeth
Banned
I initially thought that the thread was going to be about bowel movements (looking for tips, ya know?)
But no one can make you vamoose except a judge.
But no one can make you vamoose except a judge.
DrakeZ07
Regular Member
@Glockster;
Spoken like a true cop.
No, that is not a good thing, Sell-out.
Spoken like a true cop.
No, that is not a good thing, Sell-out.
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papa bear
Regular Member
MANTIOCH, i think your avatar is funny due to your response. but for first responder, know that is you and anyone else that defends their home. but like you say it won't be fireman, rescue workers , or probably not even the police. all we have to do is look at Katrina aftermath, to see what can happen. or even Boston.
for you guys that said that people would be "melt" if they stayed. there are thousands of cases where the government lied to people.
try reading the 'going home" series, and see what you think
KYGlockster
Activist Member
Well folks I found THE statute that pretty much SUMS everything up that we have been discussing in this thread. I didn't know this statute existed, but it is right on par with some of our federal laws and is rather scary. This is a severe rights-infringing statute and gives TOO MUCH POWER to the governor and other government agents acting under his authority.
Here is just a taste:
39A.100 Emergency powers of Governor and local chief executive officers.
(1) In the event of the occurrence or threatened or impending occurrence of any of
the situations or events contemplated by KRS 39A.010, 39A.020, or 39A.030,
the Governor may declare, in writing, that a state of emergency exists. The
Governor shall have and may exercise the following emergency powers during
the period in which the state of emergency exists:
(c) To seize, take, or condemn property, excluding firearms and ammunition,
components of firearms and ammunition, or a combination thereof, for the
protection of the public or at the request of the President, the Armed
Forces, or the Federal Emergency Management Agency of the United
States, including:
1. All means of transportation and communication;
2. All stocks of fuel of whatever nature;
3. Food, clothing, equipment, materials, medicines, and all supplies;
and
4. Facilities, including buildings and plants;
Yes people, it is the President's executive order right here in our own State law! This is outrageous!
Full statute can be viewed here:
http://www.lrc.ky.gov/statutes/statute.aspx?id=21704
Here is just a taste:
39A.100 Emergency powers of Governor and local chief executive officers.
(1) In the event of the occurrence or threatened or impending occurrence of any of
the situations or events contemplated by KRS 39A.010, 39A.020, or 39A.030,
the Governor may declare, in writing, that a state of emergency exists. The
Governor shall have and may exercise the following emergency powers during
the period in which the state of emergency exists:
(c) To seize, take, or condemn property, excluding firearms and ammunition,
components of firearms and ammunition, or a combination thereof, for the
protection of the public or at the request of the President, the Armed
Forces, or the Federal Emergency Management Agency of the United
States, including:
1. All means of transportation and communication;
2. All stocks of fuel of whatever nature;
3. Food, clothing, equipment, materials, medicines, and all supplies;
and
4. Facilities, including buildings and plants;
Yes people, it is the President's executive order right here in our own State law! This is outrageous!
Full statute can be viewed here:
http://www.lrc.ky.gov/statutes/statute.aspx?id=21704
KYGlockster
Activist Member
HAHA. I just now read what you have posted. You're calling me a sell-out? That is funny.
Of the firefighters I know, NONE of them know anything about KY law, much less the KY Constitution. We have ENOUGH problems NOW with "peace" officers who actually HAVE studied the law and constitutional law violating people's rights. Do we really want more people out there who are able to arrest and take away your freedom who have devoted their time to becoming a trained firefighter but not a conservator of the peace and occasional enforcer of the law?
We have separation of powers within government agencies for a reason. When you place TOO much power or authority in the hands of individual agents of the state, then you have a higher probability of oversight and abuse. I am NOT saying that this has happened or will, but the past doesn't lie, and one government agent with too much power is a bad thing.
davidmcbeth
Banned
What, you wanna live forever? And one will never know when its a fake (or serious) or real emergency until well after the "emergency" is over.
I can make my own decisions ... give me the facts and make recommendations. Try to force me into a decision and I will resist being FORCED.
"trying to do their jobs" boohoo ... Want to go home tonight? Leave me alone.
Mantioch
Regular Member
No one cares. Go respond randomly without reading the whole thread somewhere else. ******.
Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2
Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2
davidmcbeth
Banned
Double to you ... I was responding to a specific comment ... duh
Go back to reddit...