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Thread: Few open carry questions to clear things up for me

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    Few open carry questions to clear things up for me

    I am new at open carrying my hand gun. I have had my CPL for almost five years now so I am familiar with those laws. I guess a few questions that I have are:
    1. Can I open carry at a stadium seating more than 2500?
    2. Can I open carry into a bank?
    3. I know when I open carry and enter my vehicle it is then considered to be concealed. But what if I am riding my motorcycle. Is there some kind of loophole that could get me in trouble if I open carry while riding? I only ask because when I try to conceal carry with an IWB holster my shirt blows up and reveals my gun anyways. The only way I have been able to carry on my bike concealed is if I wear a shoulder holster with a pull over jacket or sweatshirt on.
    4. What about doing open carry at a place like buffalo wild wings or a similar restaurant?

    I am pretty sure some of the CPL laws have changed as well since I got my license and I am going to my law refresher course in two weeks for my renewal so I will be updated on them.
    Any help is greatly appreciated.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksanderson1981 View Post
    1. Can I open carry at a stadium seating more than 2500? 2. Can I open carry into a bank? 4. What about doing open carry at a place like buffalo wild wings or a similar restaurant?
    750.234d

    Sec. 234d.
    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.


    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.


    (c) A court.


    (d) A theatre.


    (e) A sports arena.


    (f) A day care center.


    (g) A hospital.


    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.


    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:


    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.


    (b) A peace officer.


    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.


    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the
    owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

    Quote Originally Posted by ksanderson1981 View Post
    3. I know when I open carry and enter my vehicle it is then considered to be concealed. But what if I am riding my motorcycle. Is there some kind of loophole that could get me in trouble if I open carry while riding? I only ask because when I try to conceal carry with an IWB holster my shirt blows up and reveals my gun anyways. The only way I have been able to carry on my bike concealed is if I wear a shoulder holster with a pull over jacket or sweatshirt on.
    750.227

    . . .

    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.
    There is nothing in MI law that prescribes how a CPL holder must carry their pistol in a vehicle. So with a CPL you can tape it to your forehead while in a vehicle and be within the law.

    Bronson
    Last edited by Bronson; 05-22-2013 at 11:54 PM.
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    To answer more in plain English -
    Quote Originally Posted by ksanderson1981 View Post
    I am new at open carrying my hand gun. I have had my CPL for almost five years now so I am familiar with those laws. I guess a few questions that I have are:
    1. Can I open carry at a stadium seating more than 2500?
    Yes.

    2. Can I open carry into a bank?
    Yes.

    3. I know when I open carry and enter my vehicle it is then considered to be concealed. But what if I am riding my motorcycle. Is there some kind of loophole that could get me in trouble if I open carry while riding? I only ask because when I try to conceal carry with an IWB holster my shirt blows up and reveals my gun anyways. The only way I have been able to carry on my bike concealed is if I wear a shoulder holster with a pull over jacket or sweatshirt on.
    On your motorcycle is considered "In a vehicle" in the eyes of the law and requires a CPL. It's sort of a weird gray area, but there is no loophole to get caught up in. If you have a CPL, you're good.

    4. What about doing open carry at a place like buffalo wild wings or a similar restaurant?
    Open Carry is LAWFUL there with CPL, but they can still kick you out if they want to, as private property rules apply.

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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zigziggityzoo View Post
    To answer more in plain English - ...
    Zig, good information as always. [PS, good to see you online again]

    I believe, for clarity's sake, that your second "Yes" about OC at a bank also should have said "Yes, only with a CPL", correct?

    And also, this does not apply to a Federal Reserve Bank. Federal Reserve Banks are treated like Federal property, and you are not allowed to have a gun there, period. You'll almost never run into this since there aren't that many of them but, its good information to keep in mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle View Post
    Zig, good information as always. [PS, good to see you online again]

    I believe, for clarity's sake, that your second "Yes" about OC at a bank also should have said "Yes, only with a CPL", correct?

    And also, this does not apply to a Federal Reserve Bank. Federal Reserve Banks are treated like Federal property, and you are not allowed to have a gun there, period. You'll almost never run into this since there aren't that many of them but, its good information to keep in mind.
    I sort of assumed OP had a CPL since he said so, which is why both 1) and 2) were "yes"

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    To reinforce what Zig said:
    Quote Originally Posted by ksanderson1981 View Post
    1. Can I open carry at a stadium seating more than 2500?
    Yes. But, to clarify, you seem to be conflating two different CC PFZ's in the law: "stadium" and "entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more". There's no seating capacity definition for "stadium" in the law covering CC prohibition.

    In other words, not only may you (and must you, if you want to carry at all) OC (with CPL) in a stadium seating more than 2,500, but you may (and must, if you want to carry) OC in *any* stadium.

    For privately-owned stadia, you must comply with "no weapons" signs or a request to leave the premises.

    In the case of public stadia, even those leased to private entities for an event offered to the public, "no firearms" signs or rules and requests for you to leave due to firearm carry are illegal. If you are requested to leave, you may inform them that their regulations or rules on firearms are illegal and unenforceable due to state preemption, and you can see if they back off of their request. However, if they persist, I suggest you inform them you are leaving not voluntarily but due to their implied threat of illegal prosecution, then leave. Then come here and inform us and we'll talk about next steps with the public entity involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by ksanderson1981 View Post
    2. Can I open carry into a bank?
    Unqualified yes (if you have CPL), except for federal banks. Federal laws on carry onto federal property are another subject.

    Quote Originally Posted by ksanderson1981 View Post
    3. I know when I open carry and enter my vehicle it is then considered to be concealed. But what if I am riding my motorcycle.
    The law is simply that carry in a vehicle by a person without a CPL is *prohibited* and there is a penalty for it. The law does not say or imply it is "considered concealed". In fact the law expressly clarifies the prohibited carry (in a vehicle, by a person without a CPL) might be "concealed or otherwise". The law doesn't "consider it concealed" it just "considers it prohibited (except for CPL holders)".

    That clarification being said, there are attorneys and non-attorneys (including me) who argue that the plain language of the law only deals with "in a vehicle", not "on a vehicle". Since you are not in the motorcycle normally, the prohibition doesn't apply. However, there have been threats to prosecute, so all of us advise to have a CPL if you OC on a motorcycle.

    Yes, you may OC on a motorcycle if you have a CPL. That is clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by ksanderson1981 View Post
    4. What about doing open carry at a place like buffalo wild wings or a similar restaurant?
    Yes. With a CPL, you may OC without worrying whether or not a place has primary income from sales of alcohol by the glass.

    Basically, in the state of Michigan (except for federal property, which is another subject) if you have a CPL you may open carry anywhere except casinos, courtrooms, or the *secure area* of a jail. You must obey private property signs or requests prohibiting your firearm, or you risk a charge of trespassing.

    I am not a lawyer. The above is my view of when and how I OC, and what I know of others' stated OC practices. Consult an attorney on these opinions if you want to clear up questions or doubts, before you take upon yourself the risks associated with open carry.
    Last edited by DanM; 05-23-2013 at 12:09 PM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post

    Basically, in the state of Michigan (except for federal property, which is another subject) if you have a CPL you may open carry anywhere except casinos, courtrooms, or the *secure area* of a jail. You must obey private property signs or requests prohibiting your firearm, or you risk a charge of trespassing.
    Adding the *secure area* of an airport, past the TSA checkpoint, off limits OC or CC.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hevymetal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DanM
    Basically, in the state of Michigan (except for federal property, which is another subject) if you have a CPL you may open carry anywhere except casinos, courtrooms, or the *secure area* of a jail. You must obey private property signs or requests prohibiting your firearm, or you risk a charge of trespassing.
    Adding the *secure area* of an airport, past the TSA checkpoint, off limits OC or CC.
    That falls under the "federal property" exception I mentioned. The distinction I mention between "state" and "federal" is as regards control and jurisdiction of law over the property, not necessarily "title-holder", "lease-holder", "possessor", or other descriptors applying to a property.

    With regard to firearms carry, Federal statute clearly asserts federal, rather than state or other, control and jurisdiction over airport "sterile" areas (that's the area you are referring to):

    Code of Federal Regulations, "§ 1540.111 Carriage of weapons, explosives, and incendiaries by individuals."
    . . . an individual may not have a weapon, explosive, or incendiary, on or about the individual's person or accessible property . . . (2) When the individual is entering or in a sterile area . . .
    http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx...1.3.5.9.2.10.6
    Last edited by DanM; 05-23-2013 at 03:12 PM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Thank you

    Thank you to everyone that was able to answer these questions for me. I appreciate the time you all took to do so and I now feel much more comfortable knowing. I am glad that I happen to stumble on this website a couple weeks ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ksanderson1981 View Post
    Thank you to everyone that was able to answer these questions for me. I appreciate the time you all took to do so and I now feel much more comfortable knowing. I am glad that I happen to stumble on this website a couple weeks ago.
    Be nice to meet you at a gathering, seminar, gun turn-in, rally, or counter-rally event. Hope you attend one of those soon!
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    [QUOTE=DanM;1942142]Be nice to meet you at a gathering, seminar, gun turn-in, rally, or counter-rally event. Hope you attend one of those soon![/QUOTE

    Sounds like a good idea.

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    [QUOTE=ksanderson1981;1942175]
    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    Be nice to meet you at a gathering, seminar, gun turn-in, rally, or counter-rally event. Hope you attend one of those soon![/QUOTE

    Sounds like a good idea.
    Here is the link to a fundraiser lunch in Wyoming on 6-8 you may be interested in.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...0am-Wyoming-MI
    Want to keep informed of Open Carry events in your area? Go to www.miopencarry.org/update

    I carry a gun because a Police Officer is too heavy.

    For Drama free gun rights discussion, see http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/

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    [QUOTE=Ezerharden;1942225]
    Quote Originally Posted by ksanderson1981 View Post

    Here is the link to a fundraiser lunch in Wyoming on 6-8 you may be interested in.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...0am-Wyoming-MI
    I just looked that up. I will for sure be there. I look forward to meeting other people that share my beliefs in the second amendment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    The law is simply that carry in a vehicle by a person without a CPL is *prohibited* and there is a penalty for it. The law does not say or imply it is "considered concealed". In fact the law expressly clarifies the prohibited carry (in a vehicle, by a person without a CPL) might be "concealed or otherwise". The law doesn't "consider it concealed" it just "considers it prohibited (except for CPL holders)".
    Thank you for explaining it this way. It always bugs me when people explain entering a vehicle as "now it's considered concealed." No, it's prohibited because carrying in a vehicle (concealed, open, or taped to your forehead) is illegal unless you have a CPL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hevymetal View Post
    Adding the *secure area* of an airport, past the TSA checkpoint, off limits OC or CC.
    And u of m property
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lapeer20m View Post
    And u of m property

    That's debatable, but untested in the law

    I would argue MCRGO v. Ferndale and MGO/MOC v. CADL would cover that.

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    speaking of college property. a community college that has a a policy in the student handbook stating all firearms are banned on school property is unenforceable with the exception of classrooms and dormitories, correct?
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    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    speaking of college property. a community college that has a a policy in the student handbook stating all firearms are banned on school property is unenforceable with the exception of classrooms and dormitories, correct?
    I would think legally they would not be able to do anything but they could kick the student out for breaking the student rules,
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    if they can't do anything legally, they would be outside their authority to kick you out... just like a library. if CADL had the authority to remove people for open carry the court case would have been unnecessary
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    if they can't do anything legally, they would be outside their authority to kick you out... just like a library. if CADL had the authority to remove people for open carry the court case would have been unnecessary
    I think it would be more a employee - employer type relationship
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    I think it would be more a employee - employer type relationship

    The school would have to argue in court that the 123.1103 exemption for employee regulation applies to Students because students are employees of the school. And that would not fly in court, considering the STUDENTS are paying the SCHOOL, not the other way around.

    It definitely feels like that sort of relationship, but if the City of Royal Oak cannot enter into contract with ABE and have ABE prohibit firearms, then the school cannot enter into contract with STUDENTS and, in part of that contract, prohibit firearms.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Few open carry questions to clear things up for me

    Quote Originally Posted by zigziggityzoo View Post

    It definitely feels like that sort of relationship, but if the City of Royal Oak cannot enter into contract with ABE and have ABE prohibit firearms, then the school cannot enter into contract with STUDENTS and, in part of that contract, prohibit firearms.
    That's a big if. ABE was never litigated. Such a case would certainly end up at CoA.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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