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Thread: Shotgun in scabbard in vehicle in MI?

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    Shotgun in scabbard in vehicle in MI?

    I checked MI law regarding possession of a shotgun in a motor vehicle. It says:

    "In order to transport or possess rifles and shotguns in a motor vehicle, Michigan law requires that they be unloaded and be one or more of the following: broken down, enclosed in a case, carried in the trunk of the vehicle, or inaccessible from the interior of the vehicle."


    I drive an SUV so I have no trunk and only have interior. I have a Mossberg 500 in a scabbard, but I wonder if that constitutes as a case? It's not 100% enclosed (if that even matters), but there is a retention strap. Any advice on the subject?

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    I think it must be enclosed in a case.

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    I think enforcement will be determined by officer, but I would not think a scabbard would meet the legal definition.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Volk View Post
    It's not 100% enclosed (if that even matters), but there is a retention strap. Any advice on the subject?
    I would say that since it is specifically called out in the law, that you cited, that yes it matters.

    "In order to transport or possess rifles and shotguns in a motor vehicle, Michigan law requires that they be unloaded and be one or more of the following: broken down, enclosed in a case, carried in the trunk of the vehicle, or inaccessible from the interior of the vehicle."

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    I just checked the exact definition of "enclosed". Surround or close off on all sides.

    I guess the idea of a scabbard if out. Thanks for the posts, gents.

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    Re: Shotgun in scabbard in vehicle in MI?

    Since last I heard MI did away with "MI pistols" - short barrel long guns classifed as pistols -the only way I think you could legally carry a shotgun in a car would be to obtain a shotgun that started out classifed as a pistol? Or maybe a AOW scatter gun like the serbu super shorty???? Good question. Hope one of the guru's here can help. EDIT - this of course applies to CPL holders only. Non CPL holders in MI must have all firearms in a vehicle in transport mode.
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 05-29-2013 at 10:24 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    Since last I heard MI did away with "MI pistols" - short barrel long guns classifed as pistols -the only way I think you could legally carry a shotgun in a car would be to obtain a shotgun that started out classifed as a pistol? Or maybe a AOW scatter gun like the serbu super shorty???? Good question. Hope one of the guru's here can help.
    Yep, grandfathered midap or AOW under CPL, or enclosed in a case while unloaded, these are the options to keep a shotgun fairly available in michigan and with the latter you also have the gfsza to contend with.
    Last edited by Michigander; 05-29-2013 at 10:24 PM.
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    Re: Shotgun in scabbard in vehicle in MI?

    NM...
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 05-29-2013 at 11:11 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    Since last I heard MI did away with "MI pistols" - short barrel long guns classifed as pistols -the only way I think you could legally carry a shotgun in a car would be to obtain a shotgun that started out classifed as a pistol? Or maybe a AOW scatter gun like the serbu super shorty???? Good question. Hope one of the guru's here can help. EDIT - this of course applies to CPL holders only. Non CPL holders in MI must have all firearms in a vehicle in transport mode.
    I don't see anything that says "MI Pistols" have been "done away with". If you believe this is true please cite the law change. The only change was from 30-26" is not considered a pistol any longer. You can still have a Michigan pistol as long as it is not greater then 26" in length.



    750.228. Ownership of pistol greater than 26 inches in length; conditions; election to have firearm not considered as pistol.

    Sec. 228

    (1) A person may lawfully own, possess, carry, or transport as a pistol a firearm greater than 26 inches in length if all of the following conditions apply:

    (a) The person registered the firearm as a pistol under section 2 or 2a of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422 and 28.422a, before January 1, 2013.

    (b) The person who registered the firearm as described in subdivision (a) has maintained registration of the firearm since January 1, 2013 without lapse.

    (c) The person possesses a copy of the license or record issued to him or her under section 2 or 2a of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422 and 28.422a.

    (2) A person who satisfies all of the conditions listed under subsection (1) nevertheless may elect to have the firearm not be considered to be a pistol. A person who makes the election under this subsection shall notify the department of state police of the election in a manner prescribed by that department.

    A firearm that was previously classified and is currently registered as a pistol may still be carried concealed by someone with a valid Michigan Concealed Pistol License.

    n accordance with MCL 750.228(2), attached is the form for a person to complete and mail to the Firearms Records Unit to notify the Department of State Police of an election to no longer have the firearm considered to be a pistol.
    Last edited by mikestilly; 05-30-2013 at 07:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikestilly View Post
    I don't see anything that says "MI Pistols" have been "done away with". If you believe this is true please cite the law change. The only change was from 30-26" is not considered a pistol any longer. You can still have a Michigan pistol as long as it is not greater then 26" in length.



    750.228. Ownership of pistol greater than 26 inches in length; conditions; election to have firearm not considered as pistol.

    Sec. 228

    (1) A person may lawfully own, possess, carry, or transport as a pistol a firearm greater than 26 inches in length if all of the following conditions apply:

    (a) The person registered the firearm as a pistol under section 2 or 2a of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422 and 28.422a, before January 1, 2013.

    (b) The person who registered the firearm as described in subdivision (a) has maintained registration of the firearm since January 1, 2013 without lapse.

    (c) The person possesses a copy of the license or record issued to him or her under section 2 or 2a of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422 and 28.422a.

    (2) A person who satisfies all of the conditions listed under subsection (1) nevertheless may elect to have the firearm not be considered to be a pistol. A person who makes the election under this subsection shall notify the department of state police of the election in a manner prescribed by that department.

    A firearm that was previously classified and is currently registered as a pistol may still be carried concealed by someone with a valid Michigan Concealed Pistol License.

    n accordance with MCL 750.228(2), attached is the form for a person to complete and mail to the Firearms Records Unit to notify the Department of State Police of an election to no longer have the firearm considered to be a pistol.
    Any Mi Pistol registered before 1/1/2013, grandfathers in. See SB 0760, 0761, 0762.

    Per 750.222:

    (e) "Pistol" means a loaded or unloaded firearm that is 26 inches or less in length, or a loaded or unloaded firearm that by its construction and appearance conceals itself as a firearm.
    If by chance, your Mossy 500, even with a barrel 18 inches or more in length, measures (OAL) EXACTY 26 inches, it can legally be registered as a pistol and carried as such with a CPL. If by chance, the same Mossy measures 25.99 inches, it's a SBS and illegal under Michigan law.

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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikestilly View Post
    ...The only change was from 30-26" is not considered a pistol any longer...
    Which, last time I checked, would make the item an NFA regulated SBR or SBS, which, last time I checked, was illegal. Thus, effectively doing away with the 'Michigan Pistol' except for those grandfathered in, or AOWs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle View Post
    Which, last time I checked, would make the item an NFA regulated SBR or SBS, which, last time I checked, was illegal. Thus, effectively doing away with the 'Michigan Pistol' except for those grandfathered in, or AOWs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle View Post
    Which, last time I checked, would make the item an NFA regulated SBR or SBS, which, last time I checked, was illegal. Thus, effectively doing away with the 'Michigan Pistol' except for those grandfathered in, or AOWs.
    I disagree. As I read it if it doesn't have a stock and is configured as a pistol and is 26" or less then it would be a considered a "Michigan" pistol. The provisions always had it as a SBR or SBS if it had a stock (configured as a rifle).

    Here's a pretty good definition of a "Michigan pistol" which will need to be altered to 26' or less. Am I missing something?

    http://www.firearmowners.com/index.p...ichigan-pistol
    Last edited by mikestilly; 05-31-2013 at 07:35 AM.

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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikestilly View Post
    I disagree. As I read it if it doesn't have a stock and is configured as a pistol and is 26" or less then it would be a considered a "Michigan" pistol. The provisions always had it as a SBR or SBS if it had a stock (configured as a rifle).

    Here's a pretty good definition of a "Michigan pistol" which will need to be altered to 26' or less. Am I missing something?

    http://www.firearmowners.com/index.p...ichigan-pistol
    Quote Originally Posted by 750.222 Definitions
    (i) "Short-barreled shotgun" means a shotgun having 1 or more barrels less than 18 inches in length or a weapon made from a shotgun, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if the weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches.
    ...
    (k) "Short-barreled rifle" means a rifle having 1 or more barrels less than 16 inches in length or a weapon made from a rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if the weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches.
    Which would mean it would have to be manufactured specifically as a pistol, like a Draco, with [in the case of a shotgun] at least a little bit of rifling in the barrel so it isn't smoothbore, such as a Judge, or it would have to be an AOW.

    ETA: So for you to be correct, it would have to be PRECISELY AND EXACTLY 26 INCHES, 26.001 inches is not a pistol, and 25.999 inches is a FELONY. So unless you're Frank Lloyd Wright or Jesus or something, probably not a good idea.
    Last edited by Evil Creamsicle; 05-31-2013 at 10:55 AM. Reason: You're half right, technically, but why the f*** would you take that risk?

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    PS: If you're going to cite a link to your own website, at least read the content first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snip
    A Michigan Pistol is any firearm that's under 30" in Overall Length (OAL)
    This, by any interpretation, is no longer correct

    Quote Originally Posted by Snip
    An SBS is a firearm that is either A)Modified from original version to be less than 26" in OAL or B) Either as originally manufactured or modified, the barrel is less than 16" in length. An SBR is similar, except the barrel length requirement is 18" instead of 16
    This proves my point, unless you're insinuating that removing the stock from a firearm does not qualify as a modification. In which case I'd like to hear your justification for that assessment.


    ETA: lol you also have the barrel lengths backwards. SBS is 18" and SBR is 16"
    Fact check your friggin website dude.
    Last edited by John Pierce; 05-31-2013 at 11:43 AM. Reason: Remove personal attack in edit reason

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikestilly View Post
    I disagree. As I read it if it doesn't have a stock and is configured as a pistol and is 26" or less then it would be a considered a "Michigan" pistol. The provisions always had it as a SBR or SBS if it had a stock (configured as a rifle).

    Here's a pretty good definition of a "Michigan pistol" which will need to be altered to 26' or less. Am I missing something?
    Mike, no matter how it's spun, tossed, flipped, blended, or sliced, as of 1/1/2013, "Michigan Pistols" no longer exist and never will again.

    The AR15 Pistols and AK Drac's are manufactured as pistols and considered pistols by the FEDs. They are legal in Michigan and registration is required for both, but they are not "Michigan Pistols" - just "Pistols."

    Simply removing a buttstock from a rifle or shotgun to meet a desired length, does not constitute a "Pistol." As EC pointed out above, a shotty (18" + Barrel) for example, as of 1/1/2013, with a OAL 26.001, is a shotgun. A shotty (18" + Barrel) with an OAL of 25.999, is a SBS (felony) under Michigan law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Volk View Post
    I just checked the exact definition of "enclosed". Surround or close off on all sides.

    I guess the idea of a scabbard if out. Thanks for the posts, gents.
    What if scabbard is designed to completely enclose the shotgun? Would it be ok?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sasha601 View Post
    What if scabbard is designed to completely enclose the shotgun? Would it be ok?
    That would be a gun case. And yes, a gun case will suffice for an unloaded shotgun in a car, though again look out for the gfsza.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpringerXDacp View Post
    Mike, no matter how it's spun, tossed, flipped, blended, or sliced, as of 1/1/2013, "Michigan Pistols" no longer exist and never will again.
    For clarity for those that didn't see my posts on this in the past, this is very correct, but the utility reasons behind actually registering them is still available for some types of rifles manufactured as pistols. Though I want to make it clear that we live in a highly rights restricted state which has more recently begun to sell privileges, and free people in free states can carry loaded rifles and shotguns (and handguns) in vehicles with no permission slip. Here, it has to be a "pistol" with special permission, and our long term goal needs to be eliminating registration and restrictions on carry.

    But I digress. Under 26", and it's a pistol, now by both federal and state law. Thanks to Thompson Center going to the SCOTUS to forcibly remove a portion of the ATF's head from its ass, a pistol can come standard with a detachable buttstock and either a second barrel 16" + in length, or solely a 16"+ barrel, and be interchangeable between a rifle and pistol with no NFA weapons created unless you use a shorter barrel with the stock. What this means for us in occupied america, or at least this slice of it, is that we may take an AK pistol with a 16" barrel that was never a rifle and is still under 26" OAL, and later add a quick detach butt stock to it (folding is illegal here unless OAL is over 26" folded, if I remember right due to the tyrant AG Frank Kelly and his tyrannical opinions) and have a gun which can be carried in a car loaded. The same can be done with other guns such as uzi's, mac's, ruger chargers, and others, including just about any handgun that you can fit a 16" barrel and detachable buttstock to, such as Glocks which drop in parts will do for you. This is a dumb assed approach to long guns, but it's what the law requires for those who wish to keep them loaded, so my opinion is that these guns are a worthy successor to the traditional michigan dumb ass pistol.

    The bad news of course is that the NFA prohibits shotguns from being classified as pistols unless they are under 50 caliber, at which point it's pretty pointless, so in the sense of shotguns, MIDAP's are truly dead.
    Last edited by Michigander; 06-01-2013 at 10:33 PM.
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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Shotgun in scabbard in vehicle in MI?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    That would be a gun case. And yes, a gun case will suffice for an unloaded shotgun in a car, though again look out for the gfsza.
    If the vehicle has a trunk, the law requires that it be stowed in the trunk.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    If the vehicle has a trunk, the law requires that it be stowed in the trunk.
    Nope, unless you want to carry with no case.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...e=mcl-750-227d

    THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
    Act 328 of 1931


    750.227d Transporting or possessing firearm in or upon motor vehicle or self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel; conditions; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.

    Sec. 227d.

    (1) Except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a motor vehicle or any self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel a firearm, other than a pistol, unless the firearm is unloaded and is 1 or more of the following:

    (a) Taken down.

    (b) Enclosed in a case.

    (c) Carried in the trunk of the vehicle.

    (d) Inaccessible from the interior of the vehicle.

    (2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days, or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.
    Last edited by Michigander; 06-02-2013 at 12:28 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    If the vehicle has a trunk, the law requires that it be stowed in the trunk.
    Not long guns.

    If can be in a case next to you, I do it all the time when bird hunting. As has been posted it must meet ONE of the transport requirements.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    Nope, unless you want to carry with no case.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...e=mcl-750-227d

    THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
    Act 328 of 1931


    750.227d Transporting or possessing firearm in or upon motor vehicle or self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel; conditions; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.

    Sec. 227d.

    (1) Except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a motor vehicle or any self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel a firearm, other than a pistol, unless the firearm is unloaded and is 1 or more of the following:

    (a) Taken down.

    (b) Enclosed in a case.

    (c) Carried in the trunk of the vehicle.

    (d) Inaccessible from the interior of the vehicle.

    (2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days, or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.
    What constitutes a loaded rifle? Is it loaded when magazine attached but no round in the chamber?

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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sasha601 View Post
    What constitutes a loaded rifle? Is it loaded when magazine attached but no round in the chamber?
    I don't know if these terms have been 'legally' defined, but my guess would be yes.
    IMO, Magazine in the weapon would be 'loaded', round in the chamber would be 'chambered'

    The real question is, how would the cops see it?

    ...and the answer is, why were they searching your car in the first place ;D


    ETA: If there are no rounds in the magazine, then the magazine attached to the gun would not be 'loaded'... again, my opinion. Some cop trying to meet quota may argue otherwise.
    Last edited by Evil Creamsicle; 06-11-2013 at 10:20 AM.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    One other important note on this topic is that folks here should be aware of the CB Draco, which is a pistol as far as the law is concerned, and can be carried under a CPL.

    http://www.cbrps.com/Products.html
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