Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 88

Thread: Judge rules out Treyvon Martin's past

  1. #1
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Marion County, FL
    Posts
    3,005

    Judge rules out Treyvon Martin's past

    http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...sible-for-now/

    At least the jury has already seen the evidence in the media. And the modern witch hunt continues... the state/media complex really wants a conviction on this one. I hope GZ walks free and Treyvon's family has to pay him for a ruined life.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    391
    Throwing out both Trayvon's text messages and the toxicology report is clear evidence, IMO, that Zimmerman is being railroaded.

  3. #3
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    6,520
    So he will likewise not allow testimony regarding Zimmerman's past, also; right? Ha!
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    391
    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    So he will likewise not allow testimony regarding Zimmerman's past, also; right? Ha!
    Correct. Zimmerman will not be allowed to testify about his lack of prior felony convictions.

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Granite State of Mind
    Posts
    4,510
    Quote Originally Posted by randian View Post
    Throwing out both Trayvon's text messages and the toxicology report is clear evidence, IMO, that Zimmerman is being railroaded.
    I would say it's clear evidence that neither thing is relevant to the issue at hand, which is whether Zimmerman was justified. Martin's actions and Zimmerman's perception are relevant; what texts Martin had sent, or substances he had consumed in the past, are not relevant to what happened that night.

  6. #6
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    12,279
    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    I would say it's clear evidence that neither thing is relevant to the issue at hand, which is whether Zimmerman was justified. Martin's actions and Zimmerman's perception are relevant; what texts Martin had sent, or substances he had consumed in the past, are not relevant to what happened that night.
    Then I would think there will be no photos at trial of Martin at 12 years old, the prosecution will not attempt to paint him as a model citizen, and no references to Skittles and Arizona iced tea. Anything to convict a innocent man to appease the outraged mob.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    391
    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    Martin's actions and Zimmerman's perception are relevant; what texts Martin had sent, or substances he had consumed in the past, are not relevant to what happened that night.
    I assume the prosecution wanted the texts suppressed, not out of abstract notions of "relevance", but because they cast doubt on the prosecution's theory of the crime. That makes them very relevant. If Trayvon was drugged up on something it would similarly tend to support Zimmerman, not the prosecution.

  8. #8
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,627
    IMHO - the past/history of both goes to motivation/intent as well as state of mind. The character of both should be considered.

    Gotta stop throwing Christians into the lions den to entertain the populous.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  9. #9
    Regular Member PFC HALE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    earth
    Posts
    492

    Judge rules out Treyvon Martin's past

    the media went nuts and pushed for blood because a black kid was killed. zimmerman shouldnt have pursued and martin shouldnt have attacked him plain and simple. zimmerman defended himself against an attacker who was bigger than him and that was hellbent on beating his a$$.

    the kid got what he deserved, problem solved.

    in the great words of eye... moving on lol
    HOPE FOR THE BEST, EXPECT THE WORST, PREPARE FOR WAR

  10. #10
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    12,279
    Quote Originally Posted by PFC HALE View Post
    the media went nuts and pushed for blood because a black kid was killed. zimmerman shouldnt have pursued and martin shouldnt have attacked him plain and simple. zimmerman defended himself against an attacker who was bigger than him and that was hellbent on beating his a$$.

    the kid got what he deserved, problem solved.

    in the great words of eye... moving on lol
    I agree, but IMO Z will be convicted, it is what the vocal masses want. The jury will be from the community, and they will vote out of fear.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  11. #11
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,627
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    I agree, but IMO Z will be convicted, it is what the vocal masses want. The jury will be from the community, and they will vote out of fear.
    I have a greater faith in the people and our system than to go there at this point.

    One of us will be right
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  12. #12
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Fairborn, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    13,063

    Judge rules out Treyvon Martin's past

    I believe that Z will be acquitted. If the State has to prove it was NOT self-defense (which I believe, IANAL, is the case in Florida), they have zero evidence that it wasn't. If Z has to prove it was, he has all manner of evidence that it was--all of this other fluff notwithstanding. If the prosecution paints M as some innocent 12-yo, they will have opened the door, and the other evidence could well become admissible. Therefore, I think they will assiduously avoid the character issue and go after the self-defense justification--which will fail miserably.

    No amount of media-induced public frenzy will change the way this will play out in court. What the media will accomplish is to foment riots when Z is acquitted.

    Mark my words. Poke me if I am wrong. Give me props when I turn out to be right.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

    <o>

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    153
    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    I believe that Z will be acquitted. If the State has to prove it was NOT self-defense (which I believe, IANAL, is the case in Florida), they have zero evidence that it wasn't. If Z has to prove it was, he has all manner of evidence that it was--all of this other fluff notwithstanding. If the prosecution paints M as some innocent 12-yo, they will have opened the door, and the other evidence could well become admissible. Therefore, I think they will assiduously avoid the character issue and go after the self-defense justification--which will fail miserably.

    No amount of media-induced public frenzy will change the way this will play out in court. What the media will accomplish is to foment riots when Z is acquitted.

    Mark my words. Poke me if I am wrong. Give me props when I turn out to be right.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

    <o>
    This.
    "Sovereign Immunity derives from the common law belief that the king and his agents can do no wrong." - Florida State Law Enforcement Curriculum, Chapter 1 of the text book

  14. #14
    Regular Member transam86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    hudson forida
    Posts
    18

    no loss to the world

    why is it when ever it is white on black ITS RACEISIM!!!!!!!!!! but when its black on white its allways a crime??????????? the punk got what he deserved

  15. #15
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,627
    Quote Originally Posted by transam86 View Post
    why is it when ever it is white on black ITS RACEISIM!!!!!!!!!! but when its black on white its allways a crime??????????? the punk got what he deserved
    We should not stoop to such a level as to further fan the flames.

    I would have said the result was reasonably predictable.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  16. #16
    Regular Member ADulay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Punta Gorda, Florida, USA
    Posts
    466
    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    I believe that Z will be acquitted. If the State has to prove it was NOT self-defense (which I believe, IANAL, is the case in Florida), they have zero evidence that it wasn't. If Z has to prove it was, he has all manner of evidence that it was--all of this other fluff notwithstanding. If the prosecution paints M as some innocent 12-yo, they will have opened the door, and the other evidence could well become admissible. Therefore, I think they will assiduously avoid the character issue and go after the self-defense justification--which will fail miserably.

    No amount of media-induced public frenzy will change the way this will play out in court. What the media will accomplish is to foment riots when Z is acquitted.

    Mark my words. Poke me if I am wrong. Give me props when I turn out to be right.
    I believe that sums it up nicely. I would tend to agree.

    AD
    NRA Life - AMA Life - ABATE Life
    Viet-Nam Helicopters Pilots Assn - Life
    IDPA, ICORE and USPSA carry gun shooter - Glock Armorer
    NRA Certified Instructor

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Kent, Washington, USA
    Posts
    398
    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    I believe that Z will be acquitted. If the State has to prove it was NOT self-defense (which I believe, IANAL, is the case in Florida), they have zero evidence that it wasn't. If Z has to prove it was, he has all manner of evidence that it was--all of this other fluff notwithstanding. If the prosecution paints M as some innocent 12-yo, they will have opened the door, and the other evidence could well become admissible. Therefore, I think they will assiduously avoid the character issue and go after the self-defense justification--which will fail miserably.

    No amount of media-induced public frenzy will change the way this will play out in court. What the media will accomplish is to foment riots when Z is acquitted.

    Mark my words. Poke me if I am wrong. Give me props when I turn out to be right.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

    <o>
    The only thing I know of that Zimmerman seems to have in his favor is the timeline, which seems to indicate Martin could have made it home but instead hung around in the area between the apartments. Aside from that we have only Zimmerman's word on the fact that he was attacked rather than being the attacker, and given his known actions vs Martin's known actions in the 10 minutes prior to the physical altercation I have no reason at all to believe anything Zimmerman says. Especially given he is facing prison regardless of what happened.

    As to the timeline question, which seems to be a favorite of the Zimmerman defenders these days, let me propose a scenario that explains the timeline discrepancy....

    Martin is being chased by an adult man of unknown size (unknown because he was in his car) for no apparent reason what-so-ever. Being scared for his life (which he is, and which means Zimmerman has criminally assaulted him, check Florida law on that one, you will see I am correct), he begins to head back to his home along the path he normally uses. However, as he gets to the path between the backs of the various homes in the complex he realizes he has made a mistake. It is a broad open path and the pursuer will be able to see him and chase him all the way to his home if he stays in the open on the path. So instead Martin decides to hide behind some bushes and/or patio dividers along the side of the path until the creeper goes away. At first it looks like the creeper is going to go down the other path and Martin will get away, but then the guy comes up the same path Martin went down and passes his hiding spot. When the creeper turns back around to return to his car he is facing Martin and now spots him. The attacker is now between Martin and his home, but Martin sees the man is a shorter than him and doesn't seem to have a weapon out. Martin decides to try to run past the man, figuring he is younger and faster. However, Zimmerman is faster than Martin thinks and gets an arm on Martin as he passes by and takes him to the ground. Fight ensues, Martin is murdered (Yes he is murdered, doesn't matter if it Zimmerman is eventually acquitted, under Florida law it is still murder, it is just justified murder if there is an acquittal based on self defense).

    Do I think this is what really happened? Quite frankly I think it is no more or less likely than any of a dozen scenarios I could come up with that all cover pretty much all the known information. My point is only to show that the the timeline issue can EASILY be explained with Martin not being the aggressor, and that really we have absolutely NO evidence at all that Martin was the first to initiate physical contact (Not that I consider that very important because in my mind Zimmerman has already admitted to committing assault, justifying self defense on Martin's part).

    How about I put this all another way though. What if we had all the same evidence and information, only Zimmerman never did, and never does, make a statement about what happened that night after he hung up with 911 other than to say "I shot him because I was in fear for my life"? So all we have to rely on is the physical evidence, 911 recordings, and witness statements. What do you honestly think at that point (and keeping in mind that his failure to testify should in NO WAY be held against Zimmerman)? I am sure we all come away with different ideas when the case is viewed in this manner, and I am sure some people say innocent and others guilty still. That is to be expected. I don't expect people to be swayed by any of this, I just want to express that this needs to be looked at in an open and honest manner.

    Also, as someone lawfully carrying a firearm Zimmerman should have forseen the greatly increased chance that he would need to use it if he continued to follow Martin, unnecessarily, on foot. Given that likelihood, even if Zimmerman didn't directly start the physical fight, he is still at least equally responsible for what happened thereafter and as such he arguably should be found guilty of manslaughter at the very least. If you are armed and you provoke a fight, sorry but you just simple should NOT get away Scott Free with shooting the other person no matter who actually swings first, and a decision of anything less than manslaughter in a case like this is basically saying that you should be able to do just that.

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,095
    Quote Originally Posted by arentol View Post
    The only thing I know of that Zimmerman seems to have in his favor is the timeline, which seems to indicate Martin could have made it home but instead hung around in the area between the apartments. Aside from that we have only Zimmerman's word on the fact that he was attacked rather than being the attacker, and given his known actions vs Martin's known actions in the 10 minutes prior to the physical altercation I have no reason at all to believe anything Zimmerman says. Especially given he is facing prison regardless of what happened.

    As to the timeline question, which seems to be a favorite of the Zimmerman defenders these days, let me propose a scenario that explains the timeline discrepancy....

    Martin is being chased by an adult man of unknown size (unknown because he was in his car) for no apparent reason what-so-ever. Being scared for his life (which he is, and which means Zimmerman has criminally assaulted him, check Florida law on that one, you will see I am correct), he begins to head back to his home along the path he normally uses. However, as he gets to the path between the backs of the various homes in the complex he realizes he has made a mistake. It is a broad open path and the pursuer will be able to see him and chase him all the way to his home if he stays in the open on the path. So instead Martin decides to hide behind some bushes and/or patio dividers along the side of the path until the creeper goes away. At first it looks like the creeper is going to go down the other path and Martin will get away, but then the guy comes up the same path Martin went down and passes his hiding spot. When the creeper turns back around to return to his car he is facing Martin and now spots him. The attacker is now between Martin and his home, but Martin sees the man is a shorter than him and doesn't seem to have a weapon out. Martin decides to try to run past the man, figuring he is younger and faster. However, Zimmerman is faster than Martin thinks and gets an arm on Martin as he passes by and takes him to the ground. Fight ensues, Martin is murdered (Yes he is murdered, doesn't matter if it Zimmerman is eventually acquitted, under Florida law it is still murder, it is just justified murder if there is an acquittal based on self defense).

    Do I think this is what really happened? Quite frankly I think it is no more or less likely than any of a dozen scenarios I could come up with that all cover pretty much all the known information. My point is only to show that the the timeline issue can EASILY be explained with Martin not being the aggressor, and that really we have absolutely NO evidence at all that Martin was the first to initiate physical contact (Not that I consider that very important because in my mind Zimmerman has already admitted to committing assault, justifying self defense on Martin's part).

    How about I put this all another way though. What if we had all the same evidence and information, only Zimmerman never did, and never does, make a statement about what happened that night after he hung up with 911 other than to say "I shot him because I was in fear for my life"? So all we have to rely on is the physical evidence, 911 recordings, and witness statements. What do you honestly think at that point (and keeping in mind that his failure to testify should in NO WAY be held against Zimmerman)? I am sure we all come away with different ideas when the case is viewed in this manner, and I am sure some people say innocent and others guilty still. That is to be expected. I don't expect people to be swayed by any of this, I just want to express that this needs to be looked at in an open and honest manner.

    Also, as someone lawfully carrying a firearm Zimmerman should have forseen the greatly increased chance that he would need to use it if he continued to follow Martin, unnecessarily, on foot. Given that likelihood, even if Zimmerman didn't directly start the physical fight, he is still at least equally responsible for what happened thereafter and as such he arguably should be found guilty of manslaughter at the very least. If you are armed and you provoke a fight, sorry but you just simple should NOT get away Scott Free with shooting the other person no matter who actually swings first, and a decision of anything less than manslaughter in a case like this is basically saying that you should be able to do just that.

    Not sure if serious.
    You obviously have not read any of the information that has been released.
    The physical evidence supports Zimmerman's statement of the events, and that is all that matters with respect to Florida law. There is only one witness and he's the one that done the shooting.

  19. #19
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    in front of my computer, WI
    Posts
    4,426
    Quote Originally Posted by arentol
    The only thing I know of that Zimmerman seems to have in his favor is the timeline
    And his injuries, and the ever-changing story of the prosecution's star witness, and the known violent & drug-using history of the attacker, and their disparity in size/strength/age, and the witness who saw Martin sitting on Zimmerman's chest beating him, and...

    This blog has about 30 posts (so far) about the case, the persecution, the facts, the geography, Zimmerman's injuries, etc., most done in great detail, very thoughtful. Many link to more official sources, also to people who have done other/different/more analysis on the issues.
    http://statelymcdanielmanor.wordpres...n-case/page/4/
    Those are the first/oldest posts; work your way through to the latest.

    Of particular interest:
    geography (with pictures)
    http://statelymcdanielmanor.wordpres...tive-analysis/

    Martin's drug use that night (with pictures)
    http://statelymcdanielmanor.wordpres...es-and-blunts/

    pictures of Zimmerman's head injuries (yes, in color)
    http://statelymcdanielmanor.wordpres...ack-and-white/

    seems to indicate Martin could have made it home
    If you look at the pictures of the area, the maps, you'll see how close to his dad's apartment he was. A young strong person (he played football) could run that distance in maybe 10 seconds. Then he'd be at home, going in the door, when Z walked along the sidewalk to tell police where M was.

    [Zimmerman] is facing prison regardless of what happened
    No, he's not. Since the state can't prove it was not self-defense, unless there are more grave "errors" by the persecutor or judge (both of whom should be disbarred for incompetence IMO) he will remain free, and rightfully so. I only hope M's family is well-insured, because there will be quite the civil suit to recover damages.

    It is a broad open path and the pursuer will be able to see him and chase him all the way to his home if he stays in the open on the path
    Wrong. This happened at night. It was dark & raining. M could have been at his dad's door, in the dark, well away from where Z last saw him, in seconds.
    Look at the first picture in update 9.
    Plenty of places to hide, no lighting, very dark.

    The attacker is now between Martin and his home
    Z was not between M & his dad's apartment, and Z did not attack.

    under Florida law it is still murder, it is just justified murder if there is an acquittal based on self defense
    Murder is wrongful killing.
    Self-defense is not wrongful killing.
    Therefore self-defense is not murder.
    The state has to prove that Z was not acting in self-defense.

    this needs to be looked at in an open and honest manner
    Read through those blog posts, read through the things he links to.
    He does a really good job of looking at what's happened "in an open & honest manner".

    even if Zimmerman didn't directly start the physical fight, he is still at least equally responsible for what happened thereafter
    Wrong.
    Looking at someone is not reasonable cause to attack them, to hit them, to beat their head against the sidewalk, to break their nose.
    Even if you completely ignore Z's claim that once M saw the gun in his waistband (after M had knocked Z to the ground & started beating him), M said he would take it & kill Z with it, having his head bashed against the sidewalk is serious bodily harm and could lead to death.
    There are pictures (see update 17) of Z's facial & head injuries. There are grass stains & wetness on the back of his clothes. Not on every surface - the back.

    If you are armed and you provoke a fight
    Z did not provoke a fight.
    Watching someone is not provoking a fight.
    (Well, at least not for normal people. Apparently for drug-using violent teenagers it can be.)

  20. #20
    Regular Member NagChampa's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Saint Helens, Oregon, United States
    Posts
    25
    lesson 1.

    don't accost people you don't know for no reason other than they are in a certain place.

    lesson 2.

    don't attack people, they might be armed and you might get shot

  21. #21
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Fairborn, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    13,063

    Judge rules out Treyvon Martin's past

    The way I see it coming in is if the prosecution makes darling M's sweet lil cherubish character an issue. That will open the door to a rebuttal. I don't think the prosecution is that stupid.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

    <o>

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Norfolk
    Posts
    40
    Remember, this is the same court system that could not get a conviction for Casey Anthony. The prosecution had OVERWHELMING evidence in that case. That being said, I think he is found Not Guilty. Now if there are lesser charges it might get sticky.
    ”A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity.”
    ~Sigmund Freud

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,095
    Quote Originally Posted by gearup View Post
    Remember, this is the same court system that could not get a conviction for Casey Anthony. The prosecution had OVERWHELMING evidence in that case. That being said, I think he is found Not Guilty. Now if there are lesser charges it might get sticky.
    OVERWHELMING evidence that the poor little girl was murdered. But no evidence (facts) that would prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the mother was the person responsible.

  24. #24
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,887
    As I'm watching the proposed jury instructions (including 3rd degree murder involving child abuse!!!), and have watched much of the trial, I am angry, disgusted, and afraid - afraid that the RKBA organization(s) in Florida will not do what is necessary to ensure that another individual not have to go through this travesty of "justice" by engaging in such heinous acts as carrying a fully loaded firearm, following someone, etc. etc.
    Last edited by BB62; 07-11-2013 at 11:13 AM.

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia
    Posts
    11,487
    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    I would say it's clear evidence that neither thing is relevant to the issue at hand, which is whether Zimmerman was justified. Martin's actions and Zimmerman's perception are relevant; what texts Martin had sent, or substances he had consumed in the past, are not relevant to what happened that night.
    This.

    Trayvon isn't on trial. Zimmerman is. Zimmerman can't have known Trayvon's history, therefore it's irrelevant when determining if Zimmerman was acting legally given the facts available to him at the time.

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •