• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Judge rules out Treyvon Martin's past

77zach

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2007
Messages
2,913
Location
Marion County, FL
I'm reading online that the jury do not have the option of acquitting on 2nd degree murder and hanging on manslaughter. Unless there's a giant conspiracy with the jury being rigged, then murder is obviously out of the question...
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
I'm reading online that the jury do not have the option of acquitting on 2nd degree murder and hanging on manslaughter. Unless there's a giant conspiracy with the jury being rigged, then murder is obviously out of the question...

Well, if they won't convict for murder, and if they can't hang on manslaughter, a single hold-out juror could lead to an acquittal.

All of this armchair prognosticating is incredible silly, btw.
 

notalawyer

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2012
Messages
1,061
Location
Florida
I'm reading online that the jury do not have the option of acquitting on 2nd degree murder and hanging on manslaughter. Unless there's a giant conspiracy with the jury being rigged, then murder is obviously out of the question...

"Hang" means unable to unanimously agree on a verdict either way. If they acquit on M2, they certainly can 'hang' on MS.
 

notalawyer

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2012
Messages
1,061
Location
Florida
This does not follow. Why?

Do not understand your confusion.

Jury has two charges to consider.

M2
MS

They can vote not guilty on M2.
Then when they consider MS, they may not be able to reach a decision = hung jury = mistrial.

Result. Zimmerman acquitted of M2 and cannot be retried on that count. However State can retry on MS.
 

77zach

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2007
Messages
2,913
Location
Marion County, FL
Do not understand your confusion.

Jury has two charges to consider.

M2
MS

They can vote not guilty on M2.
Then when they consider MS, they may not be able to reach a decision = hung jury = mistrial.

Result. Zimmerman acquitted of M2 and cannot be retried on that count. However State can retry on MS.

Based on the jury profiles, how long they're taking, and how easy the case is to decide for a logical/unbiased person, I believe he'll be convicted of manslaughter or the jury will hang. The defense had to have known/should have known this was the state's angle all along. If the jury asks what the sentence is for manslaughter with a firearm, would the judge tell them, or would she (he?) say that isn't relevant? It's incredibly steep.

Edit: NOT GUILTY!!! woo hoo! justice served. now time to go after angela corey on malicious prosecution.
 
Last edited:

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
Not guilty! Lady justice was not asleep.

Anticipate civil suit(s) to be for considerable damages.
 

77zach

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2007
Messages
2,913
Location
Marion County, FL
So it seems to me that Fl Statute 776.032 precludes any civil lawsuits against him by the family. Is this correct?

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes...ute&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.032.html

I don't think so because the stand your ground hearing was waived. O'Meara said last night that if there are lawsuits they would certainly win any immunity hearings. They're also going after the state for costs. Zimmerman should never have to work another day (he may not be able to). Angela Corey should have to support him.
 
Last edited:

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
I don't think so because the stand your ground hearing was waived. O'Meara said last night that if there are lawsuits they would certainly win any immunity hearings. They're also going after the state for costs. Zimmerman should never have to work another day (he may not be able to). Angela Corey should have to support him.

The statute is for justifiable use of force, and though he should have never been prosecuted, the jury conclusion is it was justifiable use of force(self defense). It is the only way the jury could come to a not guilty verdict, as GZ clearly admitted killing TM. There can be no civil trial in state court against him, if his attorneys are as good as they appear to be.

Not that the race baiters will not try. They probably will not sue him for wrongful death though. But instead try to find someway to sue him for claimed profiling. But then there were no damages suffered even if GZ profiled him to sue for.
 

notalawyer

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2012
Messages
1,061
Location
Florida
So it seems to me that Fl Statute 776.032 precludes any civil lawsuits against him by the family. Is this correct?

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes...ute&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.032.html

It does not preclude the filing of a suit. However, Zimmerman will have a self-defense immunity hearing (IT IS NOT SYG!) prior to the trial commencing. He will have to hire a lawyer and spend money to defend himself in that hearing. He will need to provide sufficient facts, through a preponderance of the evidence (more convincing facts than the other party has - basically 51%-49%), to prove that he acted in self defense. If he can do that, and convince the judge, the case will be tossed. The court will then award attorney fess and expenses to Zimmerman.

ETA: The not guilty verdict, while useful, may not, in and of itself, provide sufficient evidence in that hearing. As a matter of law, the verdict was reached based on a reasonable doubt that the State disproved Zimmerman's claim of self-defense. [That's sort of a double negative] But it does not meet the preponderance of evidence requirement.
 
Last edited:

randian

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2011
Messages
380
Location
Phoenix, AZ
As a matter of law, the verdict was reached based on a reasonable doubt that the State disproved Zimmerman's claim of self-defense. [That's sort of a double negative] But it does not meet the preponderance of evidence requirement.
Think about all the evidence that got excluded at the criminal trial that could be proffered during the civil immunity hearing. The texts on Martin's phone, for example. Zimmerman should have an even stronger case for self-defense at a civil trial. I don't see how the plaintiffs get past the immunity hearing.

Even if they did and somehow win the case, what does Zimmerman have to pay them? He's destitute as it is, defense costs make that more so, and a likely post-judgment bankruptcy filing wipes out their judgment anyway.

It seems to me that the only purpose of a civil trial is to punish Zimmerman and keep t-shirt sales going, the plaintiffs plainly cannot recover anything.
 
Last edited:

We-the-People

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
2,221
Location
White City, Oregon, USA
It does not preclude the filing of a suit. However, Zimmerman will have a self-defense immunity hearing (IT IS NOT SYG!) prior to the trial commencing. He will have to hire a lawyer and spend money to defend himself in that hearing. He will need to provide sufficient facts, through a preponderance of the evidence (more convincing facts than the other party has - basically 51%-49%), to prove that he acted in self defense. If he can do that, and convince the judge, the case will be tossed. The court will then award attorney fess and expenses to Zimmerman.

ETA: The not guilty verdict, while useful, may not, in and of itself, provide sufficient evidence in that hearing. As a matter of law, the verdict was reached based on a reasonable doubt that the State disproved Zimmerman's claim of self-defense. [That's sort of a double negative] But it does not meet the preponderance of evidence requirement.

I don't read it that way.

Per the statute quoted, he is immune. Yes, the suit could be filed and he will have to go through an immunity hearing. However, as the ONLY way the jury could find a man who admits to shooting and killing another to be not guilty is that the force was justified. That's the end of the immunity hearing other than to award costs to Zimmerman. He can also counter sue for further damages anyone who tries to bring such a suit. It should be quite a costly affair for any who chose to attack him in that way.

I don't see it going to any procedure where "preponderance" of evidence comes into play as the immunity statute is clear:

"776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer"

AND

"776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; "

As the statute clearly states such a person is IMMUNE from civil action, once the hearing is held, the suit should be dismissed and costs awarded to Zimmerman.

The only threats I see him facing (legally) is the potential for the corrupt federal "justice" system to attempt to charge him with violating TM's civil rights. However, again, as he admitted to killing TM and a jury found him not guilty (therefore justified), such an action would be difficult......but that hasn't ever seemed to stop the fed from trying to appease the race baiters.
 

notalawyer

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2012
Messages
1,061
Location
Florida
I don't read it that way.

Per the statute quoted, he is immune. Yes, the suit could be filed and he will have to go through an immunity hearing. However, as the ONLY way the jury could find a man who admits to shooting and killing another to be not guilty is that the force was justified. That's the end of the immunity hearing other than to award costs to Zimmerman. He can also counter sue for further damages anyone who tries to bring such a suit. It should be quite a costly affair for any who chose to attack him in that way.

I don't see it going to any procedure where "preponderance" of evidence comes into play as the immunity statute is clear:

"776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer"

AND

"776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; "

As the statute clearly states such a person is IMMUNE from civil action, once the hearing is held, the suit should be dismissed and costs awarded to Zimmerman.

The only threats I see him facing (legally) is the potential for the corrupt federal "justice" system to attempt to charge him with violating TM's civil rights. However, again, as he admitted to killing TM and a jury found him not guilty (therefore justified), such an action would be difficult......but that hasn't ever seemed to stop the fed from trying to appease the race baiters.

Please see the following ruling by the Supreme Court of Florida.

Dennis v. State, 51 So. 3d 456 - Fla: Supreme Court 2010
Likewise, we hold that a defendant may raise the question of statutory immunity pretrial and, when such a claim is raised, the trial court must determine whether the defendant has shown by a preponderance of the evidence that the immunity attaches.
 

papa bear

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2010
Messages
2,222
Location
mayberry, nc
i agree with WE, he has been found innocent in the killing, or maybe a better word would be justified.

in a world where the law rules he would not have to worry anymore (from the justice system). unfortunately we have the most corrupt DOJ since reconstruction. they really pick which law they want to do on a very bias bigotry. we'll have to see what they think they can get away with
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
ETA: The not guilty verdict, while useful, may not, in and of itself, provide sufficient evidence in that hearing. As a matter of law, the verdict was reached based on a reasonable doubt that the State disproved Zimmerman's claim of self-defense. [That's sort of a double negative] But it does not meet the preponderance of evidence requirement.

How does a "not guilty" verdict not meet preponderance of evidence, which is about the weakest standard there is?
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
GZ only has to meet a preponderance that it was self defense before a judge in a civil hearing to be exempt from civil proceedings. The ball is in GZ's favor, and the plaintiffs WILL have to foot the bill. I don't see them suing if they want to hang onto the money they already have. I bet the HMA is kicking themselves for settling now.
 

notalawyer

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2012
Messages
1,061
Location
Florida
How does a "not guilty" verdict not meet preponderance of evidence, which is about the weakest standard there is?

First and foremost, the verdict was 'Not Guilty' which simply means that the State failed to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that sufficient evidence existed to overcome Zimmerman's Constitutional and Statutory presumption of innocence.

The defense did not prove, by any quantum of proof, that Zimmerman acted in justifiable self-defense. It's obvious to any moron that he did, and common sense tell us the defense proved it, however as a matter of law, that fact has not yet been 'proven'.

So now when Zimmerman is sued, he will have to prove, by a preponderance of the evidence, that he, in fact, did act in lawful self-defense. The Martin family will also present all of their evidence. It is almost certain that all of the evidence we now know about, TM's phone stuff, school records (maybe), Z's arrests, etc. Everything will be admitted in a civil hearing.

The judge will hold an immunity hearing pursuant to 776.032 (prior to an actual trial) and will decide, if Zimmerman is entitled to the statutory immunity. The 'not guilty' verdict will likely be a very small part of his case, and not a very compelling one at that.

Based on everything we now know, this will be a slam dunk, and Crump will have to dig into his ill gotten gains and write a check to Z for fees & expenses in defending himself.
 
Top