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Thread: Opc in bar (taverne)

  1. #1
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    Opc in bar (taverne)

    I am from Michigan and have a CPL permit. I went to an open carry class just last week at Cabalas and I am still a little confused. Can you with a CPL permit open carry in a bar where the bars highest sales is alcohol ? I read section 86 of the Michigan state police and the laws and just get more confused.

    I just want to make sure before I open carry in Monelli,s in in town (Wyoming, Michigan).

    thanks
    Al
    grand rapids, MI

  2. #2
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Yes it is legal. 28.425o. only prohibits concealed carry.

    ETA: I should say generally considered legal. IANAL OC in a bar at your own risk.
    Last edited by xmanhockey7; 05-29-2013 at 03:24 PM.
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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    750.234d

    States it is unlawful to possess a firearm on the premises of any entity that is licensed to sell alcohol in any capacity. That same law however offers an exemption for those people with license to carry a concealed weapon.

    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    . . .


    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:


    . . .


    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
    So with a CPL you are good to possess a firearm on the premises of an entity licensed to sell alcohol.

    However, you still may not CONCEAL a pistol in an establishment that derives its primary source of income from the sale of alcohol for consumption on the premises due to the prohibitions laid out in 28.425o.

    (1) Subject to subsection (5), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:


    (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.
    Bear in mind that the private property rights of the bar/tavern owner will trump your rights to carry a pistol in their establishment. So if they see it and ask you to leave or to remove the pistol from their business don't argue, just go. Also, if they tell you to cover it up DON'T. The only concealed pistol free zone that can give a CPL holder permission to conceal is a church/place of worship. NO other establishment listed in 25.425o can give you permission to conceal. If you do, and get caught, you'd be facing a felony charge.

    I'm not a lawyer and this isn't legal advice. OC at bar at your own risk.

    Bronson
    Last edited by Bronson; 05-29-2013 at 03:26 PM.
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Opc in bar (taverne)

    Nobody gonna tell him about People v Watkins?

    Is there binding legal president about your interpretation? Has any judges or prosecutors opined on the issue in non-binding ways?

    Those of us who have been around the block know the answer. I made this post as a caution to those who would dole out answers without giving the entire story.
    Last edited by TheQ; 05-29-2013 at 04:03 PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  5. #5
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Re: Opc in bar (taverne)

    What makes you believe that Monelli's primary source of income is the sale of alcohol by the glass? Did they tell you that?
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Opc in bar (taverne)

    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    What makes you believe that Monelli's primary source of income is the sale of alcohol by the glass? Did they tell you that?
    You bring up and interesting question. I wonder how the CoA would determine that. In Watkins (unpublushed) they opined if a reasonable person wouldn't think a place was a 28.425o zone, then the case could be dismissed.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  7. #7
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Opc in bar (taverne)

    To the OP: sadly there is no 100% black or white answer.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  8. #8
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    Even if 100 % are alcohol sales, could you go in W/O a CPL, and carrying open, if the owner lets you ?
    Last edited by casper; 05-29-2013 at 05:08 PM.

  9. #9
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by casper View Post
    Even if 100 % are alcohol sales, could you go in W/O a CPL, and carrying open, if the owner lets you ?
    This much is true. I'd be sure to get said permission in writing.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  10. #10
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Re: Opc in bar (taverne)

    Q, you are a hundred percent correct: there is no way to know without actually talking to them.

    However, the fact that they have a fairly substantial menu coupled with the fact that they have not posted a sign, which the Liquor Commission offers to licensees for free but does not require, to indicate that they have prohibited concealed firearms. Because of this, I think a strong case could be made that they do not fall under the aforementioned CC restriction.

    Unless the establishment were to inform me otherwise, I would carry as I see fit, either CC or OC. I'm just telling you what I would do, not giving you any legal advice...because I'm not a lawyer.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 05-29-2013 at 05:22 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  11. #11
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Opc in bar (taverne)

    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Q, you are a hundred percent correct: there is no way to know without actually talking to them.

    However, the fact that they have a fairly substantial menu coupled with the fact that they have not posted a sign, which the Liquor Commission offers to licensees for free but does not require, to indicate that they have prohibited concealed firearms. Because of this, I think a strong case could be made that they do not fall under the aforementioned CC restriction.

    Unless the establishment were to inform me otherwise, I would carry as I see fit, either CC or OC. I'm just telling you what I would do, not giving you any legal advice...because I'm not a lawyer.
    Never been there. Never seen the menu. All my comments have been generic RE bar
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  12. #12
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Re: Opc in bar (taverne)

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Never been there. Never seen the menu. All my comments have been generic RE bar
    I know...and since you brought up the Watkins case, perhaps you could share the decision here...I don't have a link, and since you cited it... those pesky rules.
    I think the actual decision might be found helpful as I think the judge ruled Mr Watkins didn't know and found that he shouldn't be responsible for the violation... much like this situation.
    BTW, the restaurant does have a "web presence"... no mention of firearms and their menu is listed on the web.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 05-29-2013 at 05:59 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member Master Control's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Yes it is legal. 28.425o. only prohibits concealed carry.

    ETA: I should say generally considered legal. IANAL OC in a bar at your own risk.

    Whats IANAL ?
    "Liberty's too precious a thing to be buried in books...Men should hold it up in front of them every single day of their lives and say: 'I'm free to think and to speak. My ancestors couldn't. I can. And my children will."
    ,,, So Mote Be


    Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.-- JC

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    Regular Member Master Control's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    You bring up and interesting question. I wonder how the CoA would determine that. In Watkins (unpublushed) they opined if a reasonable person wouldn't think a place was a 28.425o zone, then the case could be dismissed.

    What is CoA?
    "Liberty's too precious a thing to be buried in books...Men should hold it up in front of them every single day of their lives and say: 'I'm free to think and to speak. My ancestors couldn't. I can. And my children will."
    ,,, So Mote Be


    Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.-- JC

  15. #15
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Opc in bar (taverne)

    Quote Originally Posted by Master Control View Post
    What is CoA?
    IANAL is what you and I did last night.

    CoA is the (MI) Court of Appeals.

    <Insert photo of Q holding "This gay bashes back" sign here>
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    What makes you believe that Monelli's primary source of income is the sale of alcohol by the glass? Did they tell you that?
    I asked the owner when I was there and he told me 60 percent of sales is alcohol.

    thanks
    al

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    Thanks for coming to the seminar ameelker. Hopefully we will see you at more events in the future. We have some coming up in the Grandville area next week.

    -Tom

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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    ...I made this post as a caution to those who would dole out answers without giving the entire story.
    Only, you didn't either. So this post is mildly useless. Those who haven't 'been around the block' and would be asking these questions in the first place might not know where to find information on such decisions. Especially considering how common a name 'Watkins' is, and how many 'People v Watkins' cases exist in the state of Michigan.

    Presumably you meant People v Roger Allen Watkins.

    Help, or don't. There's no reason to be passive aggressive. If the information is useful, and you have it, and you're taking the time to allude to the fact that you have it, and then you opt not to share it... its pointless really.

  20. #20
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Opc in bar (taverne)

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle View Post
    Only, you didn't either. So this post is mildly useless. Those who haven't 'been around the block' and would be asking these questions in the first place might not know where to find information on such decisions. Especially considering how common a name 'Watkins' is, and how many 'People v Watkins' cases exist in the state of Michigan.

    Presumably you meant People v Roger Allen Watkins.

    Help, or don't. There's no reason to be passive aggressive. If the information is useful, and you have it, and you're taking the time to allude to the fact that you have it, and then you opt not to share it... its pointless really.
    It wasn't passive aggressive. I wanted the OP to know there was more to the story than the previous posters had let on. I didn't have time to post a more thorough background myself. I also wanted to caution the people that were heading out the "advice" that there is more to the story and they should teach people about that part of the story.

    Are you suggesting that if I don't have time to give a complete analysis, I should give none and let the previous incomplete thoughts stand?
    Last edited by TheQ; 05-30-2013 at 11:44 AM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  21. #21
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Re: Opc in bar (taverne)

    Here is some more advice ask the owner whether the primary source is alcohol. They will know.

    Sent from my LG-E970 using Tapatalk 2
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  22. #22
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    Here is some more advice ask the owner whether the primary source is alcohol. They will know.
    See post #17.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

  23. #23
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    It wasn't passive aggressive. I wanted the OP to know there was more to the story than the previous posters had let on. I didn't have time to post a more thorough background myself. I also wanted to caution the people that were heading out the "advice" that there is more to the story and they should teach people about that part of the story.

    Are you suggesting that if I don't have time to give a complete analysis, I should give none and let the previous incomplete thoughts stand?
    Sorry...

    I was having a bad day and allowed my cynicism to seep into my online musings.

  24. #24
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ameelker View Post
    I asked the owner when I was there and he told me 60 percent of sales is alcohol.

    thanks
    al
    Like I said above, IF the establishment tells you it is 60% of sales then you have to assume he is correct; what makes you think he is going to allow OC? The fact that he informed you what percentage of the sales are alcohol by the glass tells me he doesn't want you to carry there. Do you think he's going to feel differently if you OC?

    Why would he have told you it was "60% of sales" unless you asked?

    If you did ask, my only question is "WHY?"... you have now eliminated any ambiguity in the law which might have been instrumental in getting any charges for CCing there thrown out; OC is out of the question because the owner has implied he doesn't want you there with a firearm. I would strongly suggest that you NOT carry there (neither OC nor CC). The best scenario is that he requests you to leave when you are OC (he does have the right to determine who enters his establishment) and the worst case is that you OC, you are charged, and a judge claims you violated the law.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 05-30-2013 at 04:02 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  25. #25
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    It wasn't passive aggressive. I wanted the OP to know there was more to the story than the previous posters had let on. I didn't have time to post a more thorough background myself. I also wanted to caution the people that were heading out the "advice" that there is more to the story and they should teach people about that part of the story.

    Are you suggesting that if I don't have time to give a complete analysis, I should give none and let the previous incomplete thoughts stand?
    I understand what you are saying BUT might it have been prudent to mention the Watkins case and also state that you will provide a link when you are able? The case is very difficult to find because it was at a level which provides no precedence anywhere else.


    • (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules
    Last edited by DrTodd; 05-30-2013 at 04:00 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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