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Opc in bar (taverne)

ameelker

New member
Joined
May 25, 2013
Messages
3
Location
grand rapids
I am from Michigan and have a CPL permit. I went to an open carry class just last week at Cabalas and I am still a little confused. Can you with a CPL permit open carry in a bar where the bars highest sales is alcohol ? I read section 86 of the Michigan state police and the laws and just get more confused.

I just want to make sure before I open carry in Monelli,s in in town (Wyoming, Michigan).

thanks
Al
grand rapids, MI
 

xmanhockey7

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2010
Messages
1,195
Yes it is legal. 28.425o. only prohibits concealed carry.

ETA: I should say generally considered legal. IANAL OC in a bar at your own risk.
 
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Bronson

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
2,126
Location
Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
750.234d

States it is unlawful to possess a firearm on the premises of any entity that is licensed to sell alcohol in any capacity. That same law however offers an exemption for those people with license to carry a concealed weapon.

(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

. . .


(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:


. . .


(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

So with a CPL you are good to possess a firearm on the premises of an entity licensed to sell alcohol.

However, you still may not CONCEAL a pistol in an establishment that derives its primary source of income from the sale of alcohol for consumption on the premises due to the prohibitions laid out in 28.425o.

(1) Subject to subsection (5), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:


(d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.

Bear in mind that the private property rights of the bar/tavern owner will trump your rights to carry a pistol in their establishment. So if they see it and ask you to leave or to remove the pistol from their business don't argue, just go. Also, if they tell you to cover it up DON'T. The only concealed pistol free zone that can give a CPL holder permission to conceal is a church/place of worship. NO other establishment listed in 25.425o can give you permission to conceal. If you do, and get caught, you'd be facing a felony charge.

I'm not a lawyer and this isn't legal advice. OC at bar at your own risk.

Bronson
 
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TheQ

Regular Member
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Aug 2, 2010
Messages
3,379
Location
Lansing, Michigan
Nobody gonna tell him about People v Watkins?

Is there binding legal president about your interpretation? Has any judges or prosecutors opined on the issue in non-binding ways?

Those of us who have been around the block know the answer. I made this post as a caution to those who would dole out answers without giving the entire story.
 
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TheQ

Regular Member
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Aug 2, 2010
Messages
3,379
Location
Lansing, Michigan
What makes you believe that Monelli's primary source of income is the sale of alcohol by the glass? Did they tell you that?

You bring up and interesting question. I wonder how the CoA would determine that. In Watkins (unpublushed) they opined if a reasonable person wouldn't think a place was a 28.425o zone, then the case could be dismissed.
 

casper

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Feb 10, 2013
Messages
266
Location
Holland, MI.
Even if 100 % are alcohol sales, could you go in W/O a CPL, and carrying open, if the owner lets you ?
 
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DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,272
Location
Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
Q, you are a hundred percent correct: there is no way to know without actually talking to them.

However, the fact that they have a fairly substantial menu coupled with the fact that they have not posted a sign, which the Liquor Commission offers to licensees for free but does not require, to indicate that they have prohibited concealed firearms. Because of this, I think a strong case could be made that they do not fall under the aforementioned CC restriction.

Unless the establishment were to inform me otherwise, I would carry as I see fit, either CC or OC. I'm just telling you what I would do, not giving you any legal advice...because I'm not a lawyer.
 
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TheQ

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2010
Messages
3,379
Location
Lansing, Michigan
Q, you are a hundred percent correct: there is no way to know without actually talking to them.

However, the fact that they have a fairly substantial menu coupled with the fact that they have not posted a sign, which the Liquor Commission offers to licensees for free but does not require, to indicate that they have prohibited concealed firearms. Because of this, I think a strong case could be made that they do not fall under the aforementioned CC restriction.

Unless the establishment were to inform me otherwise, I would carry as I see fit, either CC or OC. I'm just telling you what I would do, not giving you any legal advice...because I'm not a lawyer.

Never been there. Never seen the menu. All my comments have been generic RE bar
 

DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,272
Location
Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
Never been there. Never seen the menu. All my comments have been generic RE bar

I know...and since you brought up the Watkins case, perhaps you could share the decision here...I don't have a link, and since you cited it... those pesky rules. :D
I think the actual decision might be found helpful as I think the judge ruled Mr Watkins didn't know and found that he shouldn't be responsible for the violation... much like this situation.
BTW, the restaurant does have a "web presence"... no mention of firearms and their menu is listed on the web.
 
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bigt8261

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2013
Messages
181
Location
Grand Rapids
Thanks for coming to the seminar ameelker. Hopefully we will see you at more events in the future. We have some coming up in the Grandville area next week.

-Tom
 

Evil Creamsicle

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2009
Messages
1,264
Location
Police State, USA
...I made this post as a caution to those who would dole out answers without giving the entire story.

Only, you didn't either. So this post is mildly useless. Those who haven't 'been around the block' and would be asking these questions in the first place might not know where to find information on such decisions. Especially considering how common a name 'Watkins' is, and how many 'People v Watkins' cases exist in the state of Michigan.

Presumably you meant People v Roger Allen Watkins.

Help, or don't. There's no reason to be passive aggressive. If the information is useful, and you have it, and you're taking the time to allude to the fact that you have it, and then you opt not to share it... its pointless really.
 

TheQ

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2010
Messages
3,379
Location
Lansing, Michigan
Only, you didn't either. So this post is mildly useless. Those who haven't 'been around the block' and would be asking these questions in the first place might not know where to find information on such decisions. Especially considering how common a name 'Watkins' is, and how many 'People v Watkins' cases exist in the state of Michigan.

Presumably you meant People v Roger Allen Watkins.

Help, or don't. There's no reason to be passive aggressive. If the information is useful, and you have it, and you're taking the time to allude to the fact that you have it, and then you opt not to share it... its pointless really.

It wasn't passive aggressive. I wanted the OP to know there was more to the story than the previous posters had let on. I didn't have time to post a more thorough background myself. I also wanted to caution the people that were heading out the "advice" that there is more to the story and they should teach people about that part of the story.

Are you suggesting that if I don't have time to give a complete analysis, I should give none and let the previous incomplete thoughts stand?
 
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