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Thread: Pay scale of LEOs - does it effect performance

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    Pay scale of LEOs - does it effect performance

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    In fact my post put the cause at the superiors and conditions and pay as the true culprits.
    Why did you include pay in that list? Where is total compensation for cops less than the median private sector compensation, once all benefits are considered? Usually, it's much more. Even if it were only equal to private sector, so what? Many more candidates than positions for cop jobs, which means they should have no trouble finding quality candidates. If they can't, pay isn't the problem. Indeed, in the private sector an oversupply of candidates usually means pay goes down, not up.

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    Pay scale of LEOs - does it effect performance

    Quote Originally Posted by randian View Post
    Why did you include pay in that list? Where is total compensation for cops less than the median private sector compensation, once all benefits are considered? Usually, it's much more. Even if it were only equal to private sector, so what? Many more candidates than positions for cop jobs, which means they should have no trouble finding quality candidates. If they can't, pay isn't the problem. Indeed, in the private sector an oversupply of candidates usually means pay goes down, not up.
    OK, look at the three branches of gubmint.

    Executive - those that enforce laws - salary about $35k to $60k (20 year vet).
    Legislative - those that pass laws - salary $170k to $223k
    Judicial - those that evaluate and judge laws for constitutionality - salary about $125k, median about $93k

    The pay scale is not even close.

    Cops have higher risk, need to be compensated to prevent the temptation of bribery, and more highly educated (knowing the law on the fly). Lawyers and judges have lower risk by far, and can research the law and have help. They are compensated perhaps because of tradition and that it's harder to get a law degree and be appointed to the bench.

    I'm not exactly saying we don't pay enough, but clearly some find that it's low enough that they try to find ways to supplement (i.e. bribes and other misuses of the system), so it's pretty clear there's a problem which adds to the cops frustration.

    If we really need cops to keep civilization from collapsing and becoming anarchy, we should be prepared to compensate them more equitably.
    Last edited by Maverick9; 05-30-2013 at 05:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    ...If we really need cops to keep civilization from collapsing and becoming anarchy, we should be prepared to compensate them more equitably.
    What would the pay scale need to be to attract enough quality applicants to choose just those who are respectful and have knowledge of the laws?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    The pay scale is not even close.
    So what? What others get has nothing to do with anything. You know what cops should be paid? As little as possible, just like any employee. Given that there are many more applicants than available positions, I am certain that pay is too high. Departments are really (or should be) sorting for sound character. That is not dependent on money, and any cop for whom it is should be fired.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    Cops have higher risk, need to be compensated to prevent the temptation of bribery, and more highly educated (knowing the law on the fly).
    No, they don't need to be compensated for temptation. Any cop who even suggests "I might take a bribe if I don't get more pay" ought to be fired on the spot for evidence of bad character and extortion.

    The notion that cops are more educated in the law is obvious nonsense. So many tales of cops who are wrong on the law in this forum.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    I'm not exactly saying we don't pay enough, but clearly some find that it's low enough that they try to find ways to supplement (i.e. bribes and other misuses of the system)
    Some people have bad character. Fire them, not coddle them.

    I can only imagine what my boss would say if I told him that I need more pay or I might start taking bribes.
    Last edited by randian; 05-30-2013 at 05:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    What would the pay scale need to be to attract enough quality applicants to choose just those who are respectful and have knowledge of the laws?
    That's a good question I have known and trained hundreds of LEOs some bad some great most are good hard working people.

    What's a trained professional with collage, thousands of hours of training, years of experience worth.

    I thought maybe a moving wage scale might be worth having a base pay for routine work, high pay for responding to high liability situations. Bonus's for making the right decisions and no mistakes.

    Just a thought neither right nor wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    I thought maybe a moving wage scale might be worth having a base pay for routine work, high pay for responding to high liability situations.
    I always did consider it absurd that a guy at a desk gets paid the same as a guy on patrol. The problem is whether you could prevent abuse of the system. You know that in the end everybody is going to get a high-liability designation. That's just how things work in government and union shops.
    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Bonus's for making the right decisions and no mistakes.
    This I can't agree with. A bonus for doing your job? Where can I get in on this action?
    Last edited by randian; 05-30-2013 at 05:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    OK, look at the three branches of gubmint.

    Executive - those that enforce laws - salary about $35k to $60k (20 year vet).
    Legislative - those that pass laws - salary $170k to $223k
    Judicial - those that evaluate and judge laws for constitutionality - salary about $125k, median about $93k

    The pay scale is not even close.

    Cops have higher risk, need to be compensated to prevent the temptation of bribery, and more highly educated (knowing the law on the fly). Lawyers and judges have lower risk by far, and can research the law and have help. They are compensated perhaps because of tradition and that it's harder to get a law degree and be appointed to the bench.

    I'm not exactly saying we don't pay enough, but clearly some find that it's low enough that they try to find ways to supplement (i.e. bribes and other misuses of the system), so it's pretty clear there's a problem which adds to the cops frustration.

    If we really need cops to keep civilization from collapsing and becoming anarchy, we should be prepared to compensate them more equitably.
    Cops are overpaid and over compensated IMO .. so I guess different folks will have different opinions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by randian View Post
    I always did consider it absurd that a guy at a desk gets paid the same as a guy on patrol. The problem is whether you could prevent abuse of the system. You know that in the end everybody is going to get a high-liability designation. That's just how things work in government and union shops.

    This I can't agree with. A bonus for doing your job? Where can I get in on this action?
    Some people get bonus's for a good job all the time.

    Just find one of those jobs that well pay you for your good work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Cops are overpaid and over compensated IMO .. so I guess different folks will have different opinions.
    You're kind of missing my point. If you undercompensate you push some people to accepting bribes and maybe stealing found cash, because they truly feel they are getting screwed.

    I don't know where the line is but IMO, cops should get ~$50k median pay. That makes it lucrative enough that you don't want to risk getting caught doing bad things, you don't feel angry at the public (perhaps), and it improves competition among skilled applicants.

    Now, a cop that just sits and runs a radar gun all day and only stops grandmothers, maybe that's too much. But I'm going by the threshold where people with less ethics will do bad things and be angry. A $50k job is worth keeping in this day and age, and worth keeping your nose clean. Someone barely taking home enough to live in a decent place is going to feel cheated. Well, a normal worker, fine, they can go to school, but I don't want to risk underpaying people we let carry around a gun.

    I have no real data to go on, and certainly $50k in San Francisco isn't going to be much better than subsistence living. So I'm talking median.

    Maybe I'm completely wrong and an ethical cop is a given despite pay, despite support from above. But I got this impression reading some cops' blogs and that's what they talked about.

    YMMV

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    they need to get a different job if they want to make more. the whole basic problem with police is that they are paid for by stolen money. which in turn, they "enforce" the laws which steal money from people.

    the reason why you guys cant' figure out what cops "should" be paid if because their service isn't based on market value. its forced on people, and people are forced to pay for it. no one really knows what police should make. i think they shouldn't make any money

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Some people get bonus's for a good job all the time.
    No, they get bonuses for doing an exceptional job. Nobody, except in government, gets a bonus just for doing your job aka not screwing up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by randian View Post
    No, they get bonuses for doing an exceptional job. Nobody, except in government, gets a bonus just for doing your job aka not screwing up.

    So what should they be paid what's market value for the job they are doing

    So lets see some answers. It very easy to complain and not come up with a solution.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    So what should they be paid what's market value for the job they are doing

    So lets see some answers. It very easy to complain and not come up with a solution.
    Some info on current pay scale:

    http://www.indeed.com/salary/Police-Officer.html


    http://www1.salary.com/police-officer-Salary.html

    http://www.opm.gov/policy-data-overs...ement-officer/
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ca Patriot View Post
    In my opinion the job of an LEO is very easy.

    Cops make their jobs much harder.

    I think they are grossly over paid.

    Even worse are fire fighters.

    I know a lot of fire fighters in Los Angeles and they get paid ALOT and they don't do anything that justifies their high salaries.
    What amount of pay would you do their job for.

    What do you think they should be paid.
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    what are the minimum requirements to be a cop? HS diploma usually ...

    how much do workers get w/hs diplomas?

    If looking at what a cop should be paid .... one should look at what the costs of local PD depts are .. you would be outraged ...

    Salaries, OT, special grant money, etc...

    PDs are not PDs anymore, they are little armies ...

    But they fight no foreign wars..

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    It's hard to know what the effect of lower pay (or higher) and character and ethics.

    You might think that minimum wage employees steal to make up for it, but, in fact a lot of embezzlement happens among higher paid white collar workers.

    We find movies stars who shoplift.

    Again, I made those suggestions on LEO pay based on a blog that an officer made and he talked about that and lack of support from supervisors and higher police officials who were only concerned about their own promotions.

    I agree a case could be made that cops make their own jobs harder or easier. Some are worth a lot more than we could pay them. The few good guys.

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    Talking

    All firefighters and cops should be volunteers.

    Of there weren't so many laws against everything especially drugs we wouldn't need so many cops. I would even think we wouldn't need professional police

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    Quote Originally Posted by NagChampa View Post
    All firefighters and cops should be volunteers.

    Of there weren't so many laws against everything especially drugs we wouldn't need so many cops. I would even think we wouldn't need professional police
    Agree.

    It's funny to watch those cop programs where they waste taxpayer money flying around in helicopters and then tearing up vegetation thinking they're stopping crime and saving lives. Meanwhile, actual predators rob, kill and pillage our cities.

    "We pulled up 100 plants today" they state proudly. What a joke - and yet none of them can see it. They're out in the woods, not fighting crime. And why? Because Randolph Hearst thought that superior hemp fiber might compete with cotton plants that he was growing. So he and Harry Anslinger concocted a tale of blacks on weed abducting white women, lol.

    I'm a teetotaler, don't drink or smoke or anything, but I know stupid when I see it. I think we need to replace highway cops with just wardens who write tickets and cops should all be disarmed (as in Britain). Arming high school graduates with an IQ of 100 is just not a good idea, imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    --snip-- Arming high school graduates with an IQ of 100 is just not a good idea, imo.
    The mean intelligence quotient is placed at 100 = approximately 25% of the population.
    It is neither a low score, nor a high score.
    http://www.ie.iqtester.eu/articles-a...iq-values.html

    Some US police departments have set a maximum IQ score for new officers (for example: 125, in New London, CT), under the argument that those with overly-high IQs will become bored and exhibit high turnover in the job. This policy has been challenged as discriminatory, but upheld by at least one US District court
    http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95836

    If "arming high school graduates with an IQ of 100 is just not a good idea" how would you apply that to our military or perhaps closer to home - would you have a standard IQ test before an otherwise legal person were allowed to carry a handgun for personal defense?
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    Pay scale of LEOs - does it effect performance

    Performance is a relative term. Policing is often wholly given to the religion of statistics. An officer with high arrests and tickets is lauded for his high productivity while the officer who gives more warnings and finds other avenues outside of tossing someone into the criminal justice system is disdained as a low performer. A meaningful solution does not always been arrest and prosecution.

    But there is this obsession with numbers...

    There is the constant threat of performance evaluations and subsequent probation for low numbers. The old quota myth is alive and well in what is called a performance standard. Having been on the ropes for that and having had to retain an attorney to fight the proceedings, it is an ugly fight. Eventually I prevailed, but at great personal expense.

    Performance has to be assessed in relation to the culture of the agency. Be nosy. Be active. Citizens should never let any government agency do anything without strict scrutiny.

    IQ tests don't fix stupidity, poor training, or evil/illegal intentions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    The mean intelligence quotient is placed at 100 = approximately 25% of the population.
    It is neither a low score, nor a high score.
    http://www.ie.iqtester.eu/articles-a...iq-values.html

    Some US police departments have set a maximum IQ score for new officers (for example: 125, in New London, CT), under the argument that those with overly-high IQs will become bored and exhibit high turnover in the job. This policy has been challenged as discriminatory, but upheld by at least one US District court
    http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95836

    If "arming high school graduates with an IQ of 100 is just not a good idea" how would you apply that to our military or perhaps closer to home - would you have a standard IQ test before an otherwise legal person were allowed to carry a handgun for personal defense?
    For the army, navy and marines ... IQ of 25

    IQ of person to carry: 1 - its a right !

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    Quote Originally Posted by NagChampa View Post
    All firefighters and cops should be volunteers.

    Of there weren't so many laws against everything especially drugs we wouldn't need so many cops. I would even think we wouldn't need professional police
    I agree we have passed way to many laws regulating all kinds of actions and objects that shouldn't be. We have placed a whole lot of responsibility on the police and fire department's that could be handled other wise.

    The so called war on drugs is one of the worse policing decision we have made. Takes away a huge amount of time and resources.

    Volunteers can do a good job with many things I worked with a lot of them but they have other lives then what they volunteer for.

    But do want a volunteer investigating the rape and murder of your wife, child would they have the time to the hours or days the investigation may take.

    In a perfect world one wouldn't need police but we not live in a perfect world. If people would respect others and do what is right by others we wouldn't need police or all the other laws we have.

    But we have enough people out there who just don't give a dam about others or about the damage they cause to others.
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    A driver for Jimmy John's faces more hazards on the road than a cop.

    Most cops sit parked, jacking their jaws on their cell phone. They then drive to the next parking spot to jack their jaws some more.

    99% boredom and 1% shear terror.

    "Fighting crime" is a very infrequent requirement for the vast majority of LEAs I suspect.

    Cops should get a bonus, a big bonus, for dealing with yahoo idiots. I reference the TV show 'COPS', most of those shows depict yahoo idiots that cops must deal with AND keep a straight face. If I were a cop I would be rolling on the ground laughing. Once I got over my self induced abdominal hernia, and then checking to make sure i upload my video to Youtube, I would then do my job and resolve the situation as best I could without resorting to hauling one or more citizens off to the clink.

    There is money to be made from Youtube and my Yahoo Idiots Interwebs TV Channel. This income would be a nice supplement to the crappy compensation I receive by being a beat cop.
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    [QUOTE=Maverick9;1944478]
    I'm a teetotaler, don't drink or smoke or anything, but I know stupid when I see it. I think we need to replace highway cops with just wardens who write tickets and cops should all be disarmed (as in Britain). Arming high school graduates with an IQ of 100 is just not a good idea, imo.[/QUOTE

    Your right I guess every body with a IQ of 100 or less should be disarmed. Constitutional rights should be allowed only to the best and smartest people.

    All cops in Britain are not disarmed more and more are being armed all the time. Being unarmed work out well for the first officers on the scene of the latest beheading they had to wait 20 minutes for the armed police to arrive to take care of the murders.

    Would you be willing to go out and enforce traffic laws un armed. Knowing every motorist you stop is going to be a fine up standing person who well take their citation with out bad word or taking a dislike to you.

    Or that driver is drunk high on drugs and decides that you are a a$$ hole for stopping them and is going to beat the snot out of you or worse just because you dare stop them.

    Or you just might get really unlucky and stop the guy who just murdered his girl friend or robbed the local bank.

    No normally most traffic stops and just plain upstanding citizens who just had a lapse of attention. But in 25 of 30 years of just handing out citation making 10s of thousands of stops it takes only one person who doesn't give a dam to ruin your life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    But in 25 of 30 years of just handing out citation making 10s of thousands of stops it takes only one person who doesn't give a dam to ruin your life.
    So, one in ten thousand stops ruins a cop's life. What is the number of cop interactions required to ruin a citizen's life? There is a sample of the population that has been killed by the police, what is their average number of cop interactions prior to the final one? Is there even one really really Bad Guy with ten thousand previous interactions?

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