Required to provide ID according to Cop

cmbconcretefire · Jun 1, 2013

I live in NC but am moving to PA very soon. I was up there (PA) on a visit and was walking to a corner store for some drinks and I saw a random street cop on break (he was smoking by his car) and I approached him and asked him some questions about OC in PA.

I WAS NOT CARRYING ANTYING, other than my wallet. It was a total random encounter in which I just wanted to ask a real street cop real life scenarios.

He was very nice and said OC in PA was fine, BUT, if they happened to receive a phone call about a man walking down the street with an OC pistol, * I WOULD BE REQUIRED to show my ID * to the responding officer.

I politely disagreed and he was very adamant about that.

So which is it? I maintain I don't have to show him jack squat. Period. What say you? This just happened btw over memorial day weekend in Conway PA.

Fallschirjmäger · Jun 1, 2013

Penn isn't listed as one of the "Stop and Identify" states, so he can't just randomly come up and demand identification (which I'm pretty sure PA doesn't require to be carried any time you step out of the house.)
according to Wikipedia:

Subject/Law Long guns Handguns Relevant statutes Notes
Open carry? Yes Yes Unlicensed open-carry everywhere except Philadelphia or in/on a vehicle.

So, it looks like unlicensed open carry is just as legal as unlicensed openly walking down the street. For suspicion of violating what PA Code is the officer going to perform a Tier-2 detention?

"... It must be noted however that due to 18 Pa.C.S. § 6108 (Carrying firearms on public streets or public property in Philadelphia) a License To Carry Firearms is required to carry a firearm in any manner on the streets or public property of a "City of the first class" (Philadelphia.) .."

Grapeshot · Jun 1, 2013

cmbconcretefire said:
I live in NC but am moving to PA very soon. I was up there (PA) on a visit and was walking to a corner store for some drinks and I saw a random street cop on break (he was smoking by his car) and I approached him and asked him some questions about OC in PA.

I WAS NOT CARRYING ANTYING, other than my wallet. It was a total random encounter in which I just wanted to ask a real street cop real life scenarios.

He was very nice and said OC in PA was fine, BUT, if they happened to receive a phone call about a man walking down the street with an OC pistol, * I WOULD BE REQUIRED to show my ID * to the responding officer.

I politely disagreed and he was very adamant about that.

So which is it? I maintain I don't have to show him jack squat. Period. What say you? This just happened btw over memorial day weekend in Conway PA.

Well now you know why we say to never ask a police officer a legal question

"Pennsylvania is a traditional open carry state. There are 2 issues that prevent it from being a “Gold Star” open carry state. First, you must have a permit to open carry in the city of Philadelphia and second, you must have a permit to open carry in a vehicle. However, PA recognizes the permits of all 50 states for open/concealed carry in vehicles."
http://www.opencarry.org/?page_id=292

Title 18 Part I. Article
G. Chapter 61. Subchapter A. § 6122. Proof of License and Exception.

(a) General Rule.--When carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle, an

individual licensed to carry a firearm shall, upon lawful demand of a law enforcement

officer, produce the license for inspection. Failure to produce such license either at the time

of arrest or at the preliminary hearing shall create a rebuttable presumption of nonlicensure.

OTOH - PA does not seem to be a "stop & identify" state absenting other conditions.
http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_sto_and_ide_sta_sta_wit_quo_and_ide_sta-stop-identify-statutes-states-quot

http://www.policeone.com/columnists...r-arrest-a-suspect-for-failing-to-provide-ID/

cmbconcretefire · Jun 1, 2013

Grapeshot said:
Well now you know why we say to never ask a police officer a legal question

"Pennsylvania is a traditional open carry state. There are 2 issues that prevent it from being a “Gold Star” open carry state. First, you must have a permit to open carry in the city of Philadelphia and second, you must have a permit to open carry in a vehicle. However, PA recognizes the permits of all 50 states for open/concealed carry in vehicles."
http://www.opencarry.org/?page_id=292

Title 18 Part I. Article
G. Chapter 61. Subchapter A. § 6122. Proof of License and Exception.

(a) General Rule.--When carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle, an

individual licensed to carry a firearm shall, upon lawful demand of a law enforcement

officer, produce the license for inspection. Failure to produce such license either at the time

of arrest or at the preliminary hearing shall create a rebuttable presumption of nonlicensure.

OTOH - PA does not seem to be a "stop & identify" state absenting other conditions.
http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_sto_and_ide_sta_sta_wit_quo_and_ide_sta-stop-identify-statutes-states-quot

http://www.policeone.com/columnists...r-arrest-a-suspect-for-failing-to-provide-ID/

Ok, ok, ok....... let's not make this complicated. I understand Philadelphia is a whole other animal. I was not in Philadelphia. Therefore, that information is irrelevant.

I understand (thru research) that I am in fact required to have a permit to "open carry" in a vehicle.

I don't have a problem with either one of those.

So, assuming I am not in Philadelphia, AND I am NOT in a car....... am I, or I am I not "required" to provide id when approached by a cop? How he/she got to my location (IE phone or "tip" from ignorant citizen) should, in theory, be irrelevant. After all, I'm just walking down to the corner store. I'm not selling drugs, I'm not beating up anyone, I'm not destroying property...etc.....I'm just walking to the corner store to buy (whatever)......

In that scenario, what I'm trying to find out is: LEGALLY, am I required to provide ID upon request by a police officer just because they got a call from a worried dumbass who is ignorant of the law?

Thanks for the answers, keep them coming.

Fallschirjmäger · Jun 2, 2013

Legally? No.
You can always do what some others have done; leave your driving license in your car (where you're required to have a license for driving) and carry your pedestrian permit when you are ... pedestrianing(?) You can't provide a document that you're not required to have in your possession and if Officer Friendly insists...?
Well, if you tend to be forgetful like I am, I hope Officer Friendly is wearing comfortable shoes, we may be walking around for quite some time as I try to remember what I drove, where I parked or even IF I drove somewhere that day. Heck, we might even wind up walking all the way back home before I remember it was the blue car I drove that day.

GHF · Jun 3, 2013

Cheat Sheet for PA and Carrying

Download and review this:

http://paopencarry.org/pdfs/Pennsylvania_Gun_Rights.pdf

Grapeshot · Jun 3, 2013

GHF said:
Download and review this:

http://paopencarry.org/pdfs/Pennsylvania_Gun_Rights.pdf

...............^ ^ ^ ^
This Account Has Been Suspended

davidmcbeth · Jun 3, 2013

Grapeshot said:
Well now you know why we say to never ask a police officer a legal question
\

Well, you should ask him if he knows what the heck he's doing is not authorized under the law....lol

david.ross · Jun 3, 2013

I posted this on another thread asking about carry. This applies in your case too if you're moving up here.

Pittsburgh police attend the yearly MPOETC training, so they know open carry is legal. If you're in to civil rights, not just firearms, PA is NOT a "stop and ID" state. You have normally have obligation to provide ID, unless Pennsylvania is in a state of emergency. Make sure you have your VA CCW license on you at all times.

PA is currently in a "state of emergency." A state of emergency can only last 90 days unless renewed by the governor.

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal...lamations/4725

(2013 Proclamation #2.0) Dauphin County Bridge May 9, 2013.pdf

18 Pa.C.S. § 6107: Prohibited conduct during emergency
(a) General rule.--No person shall carry a firearm upon the public streets or upon any public property during an emergency proclaimed by a State or municipal governmental executive unless that person is:
(1) Actively engaged in a defense of that person's life or property from peril or threat.
(2) Licensed to carry firearms under section 6109 (relating to licenses) or is exempt from licensing under section 6106(b) (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license).
(b) Seizure, taking and confiscation.--Except as otherwise provided under subsection (a) and notwithstanding the provisions of 35 Pa.C.S. Ch. 73 (relating to Commonwealth services) or any other provision of law to the contrary, no firearm, accessory or ammunition may be seized, taken or confiscated during an emergency unless the seizure, taking or confiscation would be authorized absent the emergency.
(c) Definitions.--As used in this section, the following words and phrases shall have the meanings given to them in this subsection:
"Accessory." Any scope, sight, bipod, sling, light, magazine, clip or other related item that is attached to or necessary for the operation of a firearm.
"Firearm." The term includes any weapon that is designed to or may readily be converted to expel any projectile by the action of an explosive or the frame or receiver of any weapon.

CHAPTER 73
COMMONWEALTH SERVICES
§ 7301. General authority of Governor.

c) Declaration of disaster emergency.--A disaster emergency
shall be declared by executive order or proclamation of the
Governor upon finding that a disaster has occurred or that the
occurrence or the threat of a disaster is imminent. The state of
disaster emergency shall continue until the Governor finds that
the threat or danger has passed or the disaster has been dealt
with to the extent that emergency conditions no longer exist and
terminates the state of disaster emergency by executive order or
proclamation, but no state of disaster emergency may continue
for longer than 90 days unless renewed by the Governor.

notalawyer · Jun 3, 2013

Grapeshot said:
{SNIP}
http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_sto_and_ide_sta_sta_wit_quo_and_ide_sta-stop-identify-statutes-states-quot

That site, like many/most others are wrong about there being a 'Stop & ID' law in Florida. (I don't know about other states.)

OC for ME · Jun 3, 2013

david.ross said:
I posted this on another thread asking about carry. This applies in your case too if you're moving up here.

Pittsburgh police attend the yearly MPOETC training, so they know open carry is legal. If you're in to civil rights, not just firearms, PA is NOT a "stop and ID" state. You have normally have obligation to provide ID, unless Pennsylvania is in a state of emergency. Make sure you have your VA CCW license on you at all times.

PA is currently in a "state of emergency." A state of emergency can only last 90 days unless renewed by the governor.

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal...lamations/4725

(2013 Proclamation #2.0) Dauphin County Bridge May 9, 2013.pdf

18 Pa.C.S. § 6107: Prohibited conduct during emergency
(a) General rule.--No person shall carry a firearm upon the public streets or upon any public property during an emergency proclaimed by a State or municipal governmental executive unless that person is:
(1) Actively engaged in a defense of that person's life or property from peril or threat.
(2) Licensed to carry firearms under section 6109 (relating to licenses) or is exempt from licensing under section 6106(b) (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license).
(b) Seizure, taking and confiscation.--Except as otherwise provided under subsection (a) and notwithstanding the provisions of 35 Pa.C.S. Ch. 73 (relating to Commonwealth services) or any other provision of law to the contrary, no firearm, accessory or ammunition may be seized, taken or confiscated during an emergency unless the seizure, taking or confiscation would be authorized absent the emergency.
(c) Definitions.--As used in this section, the following words and phrases shall have the meanings given to them in this subsection:
"Accessory." Any scope, sight, bipod, sling, light, magazine, clip or other related item that is attached to or necessary for the operation of a firearm.
"Firearm." The term includes any weapon that is designed to or may readily be converted to expel any projectile by the action of an explosive or the frame or receiver of any weapon.

CHAPTER 73
COMMONWEALTH SERVICES
§ 7301. General authority of Governor.

c) Declaration of disaster emergency.--A disaster emergency
shall be declared by executive order or proclamation of the
Governor upon finding that a disaster has occurred or that the
occurrence or the threat of a disaster is imminent. The state of
disaster emergency shall continue until the Governor finds that
the threat or danger has passed or the disaster has been dealt
with to the extent that emergency conditions no longer exist and
terminates the state of disaster emergency by executive order or
proclamation, but no state of disaster emergency may continue
for longer than 90 days unless renewed by the Governor.

Not nitpicking you, just the cites.

Uh, ya can't carry in a uhmergency unless ya gots a license. But, if ya do carry w/o a license they can't take yer gat unless they could take yer gat when there ain't no stinking uhmergency. :banghead:

Uh, Da Gov could declare every 90 days that a space rock is gunna hit PA and who would say he ain't right? NASA don't find every space rock every time.

Note to self......don't go to PA, especially during a uhmergency.

SP101 · Jun 11, 2013

OC for ME said:
...Note to self......don't go to PA, especially during a uhmergency.

We thank you for this...

Citizen · Jun 11, 2013

cmbconcretefire said:
I live in NC but am moving to PA very soon. I was up there (PA) on a visit and was walking to a corner store for some drinks and I saw a random street cop on break (he was smoking by his car) and I approached him and asked him some questions about OC in PA.

I WAS NOT CARRYING ANTYING, other than my wallet. It was a total random encounter in which I just wanted to ask a real street cop real life scenarios.

He was very nice and said OC in PA was fine, BUT, if they happened to receive a phone call about a man walking down the street with an OC pistol, * I WOULD BE REQUIRED to show my ID * to the responding officer.

I politely disagreed and he was very adamant about that.

So which is it? I maintain I don't have to show him jack squat. Period. What say you? This just happened btw over memorial day weekend in Conway PA.

Well, sounds like you got the same lesson the rest of us learned over the years: don't ask police about the law.

Really. I'm serious.

Never ask police about the law.

They're not lawyers. They're not your lawyer. They're not 411 or a help desk.

Too often, we tell the cops the law on OC because we looked up. And, way too often a cop gave wrong law to the inquirer. Whether because the cop didn't know, or because the cop wanted to discourage OC, or because the cop wanted to maintain a fiction about his authority to detain people and question them. In fact, I'm having a hard time remembering a cop giving correct law to an OCer who just walked up to a cop and asked him. Can anybody ever recall such an event? Out of the numerous times an OCer reported doing so on this forum?

jahwarrior · Jun 30, 2013

Why do people insist on asking cops...anything?

cmbconcretefire · Jul 8, 2013

jahwarrior72 said:
Why do people insist on asking cops...anything?

Well, to be honest with you.... I thought it would be a good idea to ask the cop who is actually out on the street doing the job.

I think (based on the responses) that some people who responded actually thought I was asking the cop what the law was. As if he knew it backward and forward and could recite it to me in his sleep.

That is not the case. I saw an opportunity to ask a regular joe blow cop what would be the "most likely" scenario if I was OC'ing, BUT, not presenting any problems. (IE not drunk, not angry, not picking fights, selling drugs, etc)

Just walking down the street.

The cop (and he was friendly), said the most likely scenario would be they (cops) would get a call from a concerned citizen..... they would pull up, ask me for my ID, Run my ID (provided I gave it to them), and if everything came back all clear....I would be on my way. No issues.

That's what he said, and he answered to the letter what I believe was my ?. What would the real world scenario look like. He told me his version.

I VERY GENTLY, questioned/suggested that I did not have to Provide my ID as I was doing nothing wrong. It's legal. Like riding a bicycle. No different what so ever.

He agreed it (OC'ing) was legal, but that I WOULD HAVE TO provide my ID if/when they asked.

I politely accepted his answer, thanked him for his time and went into the store.

I am very aware that cops do not know the law, as a rule of thumb. I was not asking him to cite the law in a book. I was just asking him "what if?"

That's why.

countryclubjoe · Jul 8, 2013

jahwarrior72 said:
Why do people insist on asking cops...anything?

I would only ask where the dunkin donuts is located.

CCJ

davidmcbeth · Jul 8, 2013

jahwarrior72 said:
Why do people insist on asking cops...anything?

I asked a cop if smoking an e-cig at an airport was against the law (I knew it was not) .. he said yes. I proceeded to "lite up" .. he did nothing.

Required to provide ID according to Cop

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