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Thread: DOJ Permanent Rules for CCL effective June 1, 2013

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    DOJ Permanent Rules for CCL license effective June 1, 2013

    The info is in the next post
    Last edited by E6chevron; 06-04-2013 at 03:44 PM.
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    The changes in the DOJ rules JUS17-18 from the temporary rules to the permanent rules are listed on the DOJ CCW home page: http://www.doj.state.wi.us/dles/cib/...oncealed-carry

    Document for Permanent CCW Rules, Jus 17-18 http://www.doj.state.wi.us/sites/def...nent-rules.pdf

    The CCL total application fee has dropped from $50 to $43.

    Jus 17.12 Fees.

    (1) LICENSE FEE. The license fee charged by the department pursuant to s. 175.60(7)(c), Stats., shall be $30.
    (2) BACKGROUND CHECK FEE. The fee for any background check conducted by the department pursuant to s. Jus 17.04(1)(f) or s. Jus 17.07(5)(b) shall be $13.
    (3) REPLACEMENT OR RENEWAL FEE. The fee charged by the department for replacing a lost or destroyed license pursuant to s. 175.60(13), Stats., or for renewing a license pursuant to s. 175.60(15)(b)4.a., Stats., shall be $12.
    New information/forms are needed for documenting training courses taken by the applicant. They are discussed here: http://www.doj.state.wi.us/dles/cib/...oncealed-carry

    They are needed to indicate that the course met the specifications as defined in Jus 17.03(7).

    Jus 17.03(7) “Firearms safety or training course” means a course of instructor-led training that provides a certificate or affidavit of successful completion that includes the items specified in s. Jus 17.05(2)(a) and that, at a minimum, instructs on, and practices the student’s comprehension of, firearm safety rules; safe firearm and ammunition use, handling, transport, and storage; legally permissible possession, transportation, and use of firearms, including use of deadly force; and techniques for avoiding and controlling violent confrontations.
    Jus 17.05(2)(a) A certificate or affidavit supplied by the instructor or organization that is submitted to the department under sub. (1)(b), (c), (d), (e), (f), or (g) for the purpose of documenting that the applicant has successfully completed a firearms safety or training course shall include all of the following information:

    1. The applicant’s name.
    2. The name of the firearms safety or training course.
    3. The date on which the applicant completed the firearms safety or training course.
    4. The name of the instructor who taught the firearms safety or training course to the applicant and the name of the agency or organization that certified the instructor.
    A new fill-in Model Certificate (MS Word .docx format) is available for use by instructors http://www.doj.state.wi.us/sites/def...013-final.docx

    I bolded the new requirement for an instructor-student ratio of 50 students per instructor or less.

    Jus 17.03(8) “Instructor-led” means training that is conducted face-to-face individually or in groups with an instructor-student ratio that does not exceed 50 students per instructor and in which instructors actively guide students through each lesson, answer questions, facilitate discussion, and provide feedback on activities and assignments. Learner-led or self-directed learning—the delivery of learning experiences to independent learners who lead and manage their own experience, delivered via web pages, multimedia presentations, computer applications, online presentations, or similar methods—is not instructor-led.
    Last edited by E6chevron; 06-23-2013 at 05:46 PM.
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    This shows even more that the current Republican Regime in Madison is not really on the side of Gun Rights. Use of deadly force and avoiding violent confrontation has zero to do with basic firearms safety. This eliminates many good safety courses which are not "carry" courses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    This shows even more that the current Republican Regime in Madison is not really on the side of Gun Rights. Use of deadly force and avoiding violent confrontation has zero to do with basic firearms safety. This eliminates many good safety courses which are not "carry" courses.
    Exactly.

    Why would they insist on covering "Use of deadly force and avoiding violent confrontation" when this is for a Concealed Carry License, and applicants are mostly private citizens who want to carry for their own defense?

    It really corks me that they also are going to charge less money. They slipped that in at the last minute. We would be so much better off with the democrats in charge in Madison!
    Last edited by E6chevron; 06-02-2013 at 01:03 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by E6chevron View Post
    Exactly.

    Why would they insist on covering "Use of deadly force and avoiding violent confrontation" when this is for a Concealed Carry License, and applicants are mostly private citizens who want to carry for their own defense?
    My CHL guy droned on for an hour about the obscure names of parts of the gun. In addition he'd hold up something and ask we noobs, 'what's this called'. (lots of blank looks).

    It was a total waste of time. He didn't go over Castle Doctrine, he didn't go over much in the tactical sense except to say 'don't go hunting, stop the threat, here are the 3-4 safety rules'. He had some blue guns and he had some of his guns on the table unloaded but we couldn't touch any of them, of course.

    He could have cover all we ever needed to know and included some legal stuff in about 3 hours. Instead we spend two days and 4 hrs a day. It was mind-numbing.

    Nice guy, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by E6chevron View Post
    Exactly.

    Why would they insist on covering "Use of deadly force and avoiding violent confrontation" when this is for a Concealed Carry License, and applicants are mostly private citizens who want to carry for their own defense?

    It really corks me that they also are going to charge less money. They slipped that in at the last minute. We would be so much better off with the democrats in charge in Madison!
    You are confusing my brand new Harbor Freight sarcasm meter

    Are you really complaining about the money?
    My point is that this shows that they only pretended to support Constitutional Carry.
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 06-02-2013 at 01:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    My CHL guy droned on for an hour about the obscure names of parts of the gun. In addition he'd hold up something and ask we noobs, 'what's this called'. (lots of blank looks).

    It was a total waste of time. He didn't go over Castle Doctrine, he didn't go over much in the tactical sense except to say 'don't go hunting, stop the threat, here are the 3-4 safety rules'. He had some blue guns and he had some of his guns on the table unloaded but we couldn't touch any of them, of course.

    He could have cover all we ever needed to know and included some legal stuff in about 3 hours. Instead we spend two days and 4 hrs a day. It was mind-numbing.

    Nice guy, though.
    This sounds like an example of someone not teaching a WI course. Judging only by your description, it definitely does not meet the current requirements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    This sounds like an example of someone not teaching a WI course. Judging only by your description, it definitely does not meet the current requirements.
    Requirements? The good faith immunity from liability is gone? I'll have to read ...
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    This sounds like an example of someone not teaching a WI course. Judging only by your description, it definitely does not meet the current requirements.
    No shooting requirements either. There was one woman in the class that even as a noob student I felt should -not- be carrying a firearm. I can't recall the reason, she just didn't seem to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time, among other things.

    To my relief, she didn't show up for class 2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    No shooting requirements either. .
    The DOJ is explicitly prohibited by law from requiring a shooting component in the classes.

    175.60  License to carry a concealed weapon.
    (4) Training requirements.
    (b)
    2. The department may not require firing live ammunition to meet the training requirements under par. (a).

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    There are no particular Wisconsin training requirements and good faith immunity yet

    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    This sounds like an example of someone not teaching a WI course. Judging only by your description, it definitely does not meet the current requirements.
    It's unfortunate that the entire TRAINING REQUIREMENTS was not quoted.

    (4) TRAINING REQUIREMENTS. (a) The proof of training requirement under sub. (7) (e) may be met by any of the following:
    1. A copy of a document, or an affidavit from an instructor or organization that conducted the course or program, that indicates the individual completed any of the following:
    a. The hunter education program established under s. 29.591 or a substantially similar program that is established by another state, country, or province and that is recognized by the depart-ment of natural resources.
    b. A firearms safety or training course that is conducted by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors.
    c. A firearms safety or training course that is available to the public and is offered by a law enforcement agency or, if the course is taught by an instructor who is certified by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors or by the department, by a technical college, a college or a university, a private or public institution or organization, or a firearms training school.
    d. A firearms safety or training course that is offered to law enforcement officers or to owners and employees of licensed private detective and security agencies.
    e. A firearms safety or training course that is conducted by a firearms instructor who is certified by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors or who is certified by the department.
    2. Documentation that the individual completed military, law enforcement, or security training that gave the individual experience with firearms that is substantially equivalent to a course or program under subd. 1.
    3. A current or expired license, or a photocopy of a current or expired license, that the individual holds or has held that indicates that the individual is licensed or has been licensed to carry a firearm in this state or in another state or in a county or municipality of this state or of another state unless the license has been revoked for cause.
    4. Documentation of completion of small arms training while serving in the U.S. armed forces, reserves, or national guard as demonstrated by an honorable discharge or general discharge under honorable conditions or a certificate of completion of basic training with a service record of successful completion of smallarms training and certification.
    (b) 1. The department shall certify instructors for the purposes of par. (a) 1. c. and e. and shall maintain a list of instructors that it certifies. To be certified by the department as an instructor, a person must meet all of the following criteria:
    a. Be qualified under sub. (3) to carry a concealed weapon.
    b. Be able to demonstrate the ability and knowledge required for providing firearms safety and training.
    2. The department may not require firing live ammunition to meet the training requirements under par. (a).
    (21) IMMUNITY. (a) The department of justice, the department of transportation, and the employees of each department; clerks, as defined in sub. (11) (a) 1. a., and their staff; and court automated information systems, as defined under sub. (11) (a) 1. b., and their employees are immune from liability arising from any act or omission under this section, if done so in good faith.
    (b) A person that does not prohibit an individual from carrying a concealed weapon on property that the person owns or occupies is immune from any liability arising from its decision.
    (c) An employer that does not prohibit one or more employees from carrying a concealed weapon under sub. (15m) is immune from any liability arising from its decision.
    (d) A person providing a firearms training course in good faith is immune from liability arising from any act or omission related to the course if the course is one described in sub. (4) (a).
    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/doc...utes/ch.%20175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    It's unfortunate that the entire TRAINING REQUIREMENTS was not quoted.

    What you quoted is incomplete and is not the point in contention. It does not list the dictated curriculum. You do not have immunity since your certificate MUST affirm that you meet the curriculum dictated by the administrative guidelines.
    1. A signed statement by the instructor who taught the firearms safety or training course to the applicant affirming that the course completed by the applicant was a firearms safety and training course as defined in s. Jus 17.03 (7).
    You could be sleazy and have the student sign that the course meets the requirements, but hopefully nobody does this..
    3. A signed statement by the applicant as part of the application affirming that the applicant successfully completed a firearms safety or training course and describing the scope and contents of that course in a manner sufficient to determine that the course was a firearms safety and training course as defined in s. Jus 17.03 (7).
    Jus 17.03  Definitions. In this chapter:
    (7) "Firearms safety or training course" means a course of instructor-led training that provides a certificate or affidavit of successful completion that includes the items specified in s. Jus 17.05 (2) (a) and that, at a minimum, instructs on, and practices the student's comprehension of, firearm safety rules; safe firearm and ammunition use, handling, transport, and storage; legally permissible possession, transportation, and use of firearms, including use of deadly force; and techniques for avoiding and controlling violent confrontations.
    (8) "Instructor-led" means training that is conducted face-to-face individually or in groups with an instructor-student ratio that does not exceed 50 students per instructor and in which instructors actively guide students through each lesson, answer questions, facilitate discussion, and provide feedback on activities and assignments. Learner-led or self-directed learning the delivery of learning experiences to independent learners who lead and manage their own experience, delivered via web pages, multimedia presentations, computer applications, online presentations, or similar methods is not instructor-led.

    Jus 17.05  Training and documentation requirements.
    (1)  TRAINING DOCUMENTATION TO BE FURNISHED BY APPLICANT. The following forms of documentation shall be accepted by the department as adequate proof of training sufficient to satisfy the training requirements of s. 175.60 (4) (a), Stats., and of this section:
    (a) A certificate or affidavit documenting that the applicant has successfully completed the department of natural resources' hunter education program or a substantially similar program that is established by another state, country, or province and is recognized by the department of natural resources.
    (b) A certificate or affidavit documenting that the applicant has successfully completed a firearms safety or training course conducted by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors. The documentation shall include the items specified in sub. (2) and shall affirm that the organization that conducted the course is an organization that certifies firearms instructors.
    (c) A certificate or affidavit documenting that the applicant has successfully completed a firearms safety or training course that is available to the public and offered by a law enforcement agency. The documentation shall include the items specified in sub. (2) and shall affirm that the course is one that is available to the public.
    (d) A certificate or affidavit documenting that the applicant has successfully completed a firearms safety or training course that is available to the public and offered by a technical college, college, university, private or public institution or organization, or firearms training school. The documentation shall include the items specified in sub. (2), shall affirm that the course was taught by an instructor who is certified either by the department or by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors, and shall identify the certifying organization by name.
    (e) A certificate or affidavit documenting that the applicant has successfully completed a firearms training course that is offered to law enforcement officers and is certified by the law enforcement standards board or a certificate from an agency of another state documenting that the applicant has successfully completed substantially equivalent training. The documentation shall include the items specified in sub. (2) except that, notwithstanding the requirements of sub.(2), a copy of an educational transcript of the applicant showing successful completion of the requisite training shall suffice to satisfy this requirement.
    (f) A certificate or affidavit documenting that the applicant has successfully completed a firearms training course that is offered to owners and employees of private detective and security agencies licensed by the department of safety and professional services under s. 440.26, Stats., or a certificate from an agency of another state documenting that the applicant has successfully completed substantially equivalent training. The documentation shall include the items specified in sub. (2).
    (g) A certificate or affidavit documenting that the applicant has successfully completed a firearms safety or training course that is conducted by an instructor who is certified either by the department or by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors. The documentation shall include the items specified in sub. (2), shall affirm that the instructor is certified either by the department or by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors, and shall identify the certifying organization by name.
    (h) A copy of a current or expired license held by the applicant indicating that the applicant is or has been licensed to carry a firearm in this state, in another state, or in a county or municipality of this state or of another state, provided that the current or expired license has not been revoked for cause. The copy of the current or expired license shall be accompanied by the applicant's signed affirmation that the current or expired license has not been revoked for cause. This affirmation shall be submitted on an affirmation form that shall be prepared by the department and made available to the public on the department's Internet site.
    (i) A copy of a DD-214 form, "Certificate of Release or Discharge from Active Duty," issued by the United States Department of Defense, showing that the applicant has received an honorable discharge or a general discharge under honorable conditions from the United States armed forces, reserves, or national guard after completion of basic or officer training or a certificate of completion of basic or officer training with a service record of successful completion of small arms training and certification.
    (2) CONTENT REQUIREMENTS FOR TRAINING CERTIFICATE OR AFFIDAVIT.
    (a) A certificate or affidavit supplied by the instructor or organization that is submitted to the department under sub. (1) (b), (c), (d), (e), (f), or (g) for the purpose of documenting that the applicant has successfully completed a firearms safety or training course shall include all of the following information:
    .1. The applicant's name.
    .2. The name of the firearms safety or training course.
    .3. The date on which the applicant completed the firearms safety or training course.
    4. The name of the instructor who taught the firearms safety or training course to the applicant and the name of the agency or organization that certified the instructor.
    (b) In addition to a certificate or affidavit meeting the requirements of par. (a), the documentation of training submitted by an applicant shall include evidence sufficient to establish that the course completed by the applicant was a firearms safety and training course as defined in s. Jus 17.03 (7). Sufficient evidence shall include one of the following:
    1. A signed statement by the instructor who taught the firearms safety or training course to the applicant affirming that the course completed by the applicant was a firearms safety and training course as defined in s. Jus 17.03 (7).
    2. Information on the certificate or affidavit described in sub. (2) (a) sufficient to establish that the course completed by the applicant was a firearms safety and training course as defined in s. Jus 17.03 (7).
    3. A signed statement by the applicant as part of the application affirming that the applicant successfully completed a firearms safety or training course and describing the scope and contents of that course in a manner sufficient to determine that the course was a firearms safety and training course as defined in s. Jus 17.03 (7).

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    The point was of IMMUNITY from liability for good faith ommissions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    (21) IMMUNITY. (d) A person providing a firearms training course in good faith is immune from liability arising from any act or omission related to the course if the course is one described in sub. (4) (a).
    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/doc...utes/ch.%20175
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    We were never talking about "good faith" omissions. "Castle doctrine", etc is now a core requirement for any certificates issued beginning June 2 2013. Omitting such training would now be prohibited. There are most definitely specific training requirements regarding course curriculum.
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 06-02-2013 at 05:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    We were never talking about "good faith" omissions. "Castle doctrine", etc is now a core requirement for any certificates issued beginning June 2 2013. Omitting such training would now be prohibited. There are most definitely specific training requirements regarding course curriculum.
    The DOJ has a CCW Curriculum page on their website: http://www.doj.state.wi.us/dles/cib/...rry/curriculum It has many links that are helpful to instructors and probably some students. It discusses the Model Curriculum which has been updated for the changes in rules effective June 1, 2013.

    This Curriculum is only required for courses taught by DOJ-certified instructors. All other instructors have to present a course that covers the areas spelled out in Jus 17.03(7) in my post #2. Perhaps a quote from the DOJ CCW Curriculum webpage will help:

    Model Training Curriculum

    The Department of Justice has prepared a model four-hour curriculum, updated to reflect the adoption of permanent administrative rules effective June 1, 2013. This curriculum is available for use by law enforcement agencies and instructors certified by a national or state organization. The model curriculum is ready for use and includes a student text, instructor guide, additional instructor resources, and a model training certificate. This curriculum is not required—instructors may use the curriculum of a national or state organization, or develop their own, as long as that curriculum contains the minimum instructional topics specified under JUS 17.03(7). (DOJ-certified instructors must use this curriculum and the DOJ training certificate on WILENET.)
    Last edited by E6chevron; 06-02-2013 at 07:38 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by E6chevron View Post
    This Curriculum is only required for courses taught by DOJ-certified instructors. All other instructors have to present a course that covers the areas spelled out in Jus 17.03(7) in my post #2. Perhaps a quote from the DOJ CCW Curriculum webpage will help:
    I understand crystal clear what is required. The curriculum I am referring to is that dictated by the definition of "Firearms Safety or Training Course". This is irrelevant of whether you are teaching a DOJ course or not. This curriculum content must be affirmed on the Proof of training certificate by either the instructor or student.


    Jus 17.03  Definitions. In this chapter:
    (7) "Firearms safety or training course" means a course of instructor-led training that provides a certificate or affidavit of successful completion that includes the items specified in s. Jus 17.05 (2) (a) and that, at a minimum, instructs on, and practices the student's comprehension of, firearm safety rules; safe firearm and ammunition use, handling, transport, and storage; legally permissible possession, transportation, and use of firearms, including use of deadly force; and techniques for avoiding and controlling violent confrontations.
    Jus 17.05  Training and documentation requirements.
    (2) CONTENT REQUIREMENTS FOR TRAINING CERTIFICATE OR AFFIDAVIT.
    (b) In addition to a certificate or affidavit meeting the requirements of par. (a), the documentation of training submitted by an applicant shall include evidence sufficient to establish that the course completed by the applicant was a firearms safety and training course as defined in s. Jus 17.03 (7). Sufficient evidence shall include one of the following:
    1. A signed statement by the instructor who taught the firearms safety or training course to the applicant affirming that the course completed by the applicant was a firearms safety and training course as defined in s. Jus 17.03 (7).
    2. Information on the certificate or affidavit described in sub. (2) (a) sufficient to establish that the course completed by the applicant was a firearms safety and training course as defined in s. Jus 17.03 (7).
    3. A signed statement by the applicant as part of the application affirming that the applicant successfully completed a firearms safety or training course and describing the scope and contents of that course in a manner sufficient to determine that the course was a firearms safety and training course as defined in s. Jus 17.03 (7).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    I understand crystal clear what is required. The curriculum I am referring to is that dictated by the definition of "Firearms Safety or Training Course". This is irrelevant of whether you are teaching a DOJ course or not. This curriculum content must be affirmed on the Proof of training certificate by either the instructor or student.
    The course content is in the rules. I am glad I included JUS17.03(7) definition of "Firearms Safety or Training Course", in my original post. This subsection has the minimum content for a course. It had a different subsection number in the temporary rules, because the old subsection 17.03(5) "Current and valid" definition was dropped in the permanent rules.
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    Quote Originally Posted by E6chevron View Post
    The course content is in the rules. I am glad I included JUS17.03(7) definition of "Firearms Safety or Training Course", in my original post. This subsection has the minimum content for a course. It had a different subsection number in the temporary rules, because the old subsection 17.03(5) "Current and valid" definition was dropped in the permanent rules.
    My point is that the definition in its current form did not exist before the permanent rules went into effect. Firearms Safety Rules and Safe Firearms handling was all that was required... 17.03(8) was the "old" definition. The DOJ tried but these were suspended. Not only is there now more specific (unreasonable) minimum required curriculum/content, the instructor or student must attest to this fact by signing the certificate to that effect.

    http://www.doj.state.wi.us/sites/def...s-20111107.pdf
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 06-03-2013 at 03:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    My point is that the definition in its current form did not exist before the permanent rules went into effect. Firearms Safety Rules and Safe Firearms handling was all that was required... 17.03(8) was the "old" definition. The DOJ tried but these were suspended. Not only is there now more specific (unreasonable) minimum required curriculum/content, the instructor or student must attest to this fact by signing the certificate to that effect.

    http://www.doj.state.wi.us/sites/def...s-20111107.pdf
    Quite right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight
    This eliminates many good safety courses which are not "carry" courses.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight
    your certificate MUST affirm that you meet the curriculum dictated by the administrative guidelines.
    Quote Originally Posted by E6chevron
    instructors have to present a course that covers the areas spelled out in Jus 17.03(7)
    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight
    the definition in its current form did not exist before the permanent rules went into effect. Firearms Safety Rules and Safe Firearms handling was all that was required...
    All quite correct.
    These new DOJ rules have circumvented the law, just like their original rules tried to do, and our legislators should again remind them that they can't do that.

    As an example:
    Under these new rules, an 8 hour NRA Basic Pistol class (which includes live fire) is not acceptable, even though the law says it is. 175.60(4)(a)(1)(e)
    It does not include
    "use of deadly force; and techniques for avoiding and controlling violent confrontations"

    But someone could sit down over lunch & discuss all the topics with someone in maybe 45min, then go to the trunk of his car & have the student demonstrate unloading safely, and that would be kosher.
    (I don't know of any instructor who'd actually do that, but it would be legal.)

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